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Silverbullet wrote:I cannot remember any occasion that Picard overuled Beverly. He sugested and she may have followed those sggestions but he didn't ovrule her.

Nor did Janeway interfere with the Doctor even though he was a holoprogram. As far as Janeway was concerned he was the Doctor.

SB

OMG Are... You... Kidding... Me! Okay I'm going to post some episodes now look them up!

First up for Janeway... Nothing Human she not only forced the Doc to do a proceedure she over-ruled B'Elanna's own wishes!!!!

Now Picard... The episode is called Suspicions Picard gives her a direct order NOT to do an autopsy.

Dr. Crusher discusses how unusual this seems with Captain Picard. She is determined to perform an autopsy, but the captain informs her that it is out of the question, as the family insists the body not be desecrated before they can perform the Ferengi death ritual. Frustrated, Dr. Crusher decides to perform an investigation. She confronts Christopher and T'Pan, and Christopher becomes incensed. Eventually, he mentions that Kurak and Reyga had a fiery argument. Dr. Crusher then confronts the Klingon scientist, much to her own peril. As she determines Kurak also did not murder Reyga, she finds herself stumped. Knowing she will be disobeying a direct order, she performs an autopsy on Reyga... and finds nothing. She informs Picard, who is extremely disappointed. Picard has no choice but to relieve her from duty.

Isn't it entirely possible that Phlox operated under a different set of medical ethics? I believe he once even said something to that effect. And we did see him act in a morally repugnant manner at least once (according to me anyway).

Also, he wasn't in Starfleet. He was a civilian, and from a medical exchange program from a different world.

All this might make him uncomfortable making the kind of decisions one might expect from a CMO on a starship. Like releaving Archer of command in Hatchery or declaring stoned up T'Pol unfit for duty once he learned about her Trellium addiction.

Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:Isn't it entirely possible that Phlox operated under a different set of medical ethics? I believe he once even said something to that effect. And we did see him act in a morally repugnant manner at least once (according to me anyway).

Possible, although I personally believe that the costumes may be different, but moral is not. Also I think I can say that in the show you can notice some attempt to assimilate the ethics of Phlox, as a doctor, to those of humans.

Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:Also, he wasn't in Starfleet. He was a civilian, and from a medical exchange program from a different world.

All this might make him uncomfortable making the kind of decisions one might expect from a CMO on a starship. Like releaving Archer of command in Hatchery or declaring stoned up T'Pol unfit for duty once he learned about her Trellium addiction.

Well, but remember please when Phlox threatened Trip to oust him from his duties because he had not slept enough.

That's a good point.

As far as I can work out, Phlox was a Denobulan physician on an exchange program to Vulcan who got called in by the Vulcans to treat Klaang. I assume he was co-opted onto the Enterprise' crew to keep Klaang alive when they decided to take him back to Kronos on Enterprise. He seems to have ended up as CMO purely by default because they hadn't got a CMO assigned at that point. So he probably had no training, no formal relationship with Starfleet and knew nothing about Starfleet regulations and laws beyond what he may have picked up along the way. In hindsight, it would be foolish to assume he paid any attention at all to human ethics, customs, regulations or laws. Quite likely, he was just following the Denobulan equivalents, whatever they might be.

Very good points KTR also I was wondering, what could they have done to T'Pol anyway? I mean obviously she should not have been in command. I absolutely agree with that, but she wasn't technically apart of Starfleet, Archer had permission to use her in whatever way he saw fit, but she wasn't subject tp their rules. Phlox would still have to treat her addiction and the fallout, but other than that the only thing they could really do is lock her up, and that's a waste of resources.

Oh, by the way. With regard to 'Dear Doctor', I am more than agree with you, KTR. And that episode ... Well, I judge it very dangerous, to say the truth.

Asso wrote:Possible, although I personally believe that the costumes may be different, but moral is not.

It's plainly obvious that Phlox had a different view of morality. It wasn't just a matter of simple customs.

Well, but remember please when Phlox threatened Trip to oust him from his duties because he had not slept enough.

Which only goes to show the inconsistent manner in which the writers wrote him - and everyone else on the show for that matter.

WarpGirl wrote:Very good points KTR also I was wondering, what could they have done to T'Pol anyway? I mean obviously she should not have been in command. I absolutely agree with that, but she wasn't technically apart of Starfleet, Archer had permission to use her in whatever way he saw fit, but she wasn't subject tp their rules. Phlox would still have to treat her addiction and the fallout, but other than that the only thing they could really do is lock her up, and that's a waste of resources.

While technically not a part of Starfleet, Archer still had put her in the chain of command. Thus, Phlox ought to have relieved her of that at least. She could have kept doing research and stuff like that if they didn't want to waste resources.

Allow me to disagree about the first point, KTR. But I admit, I have my ideas about morality.
About the second point... here we go again.

In Terra Orime Phlox says to Acher "When YOU asked me to become part of this crew"

It seems that Archer asked Phlox to become part of the crew. It is also a valid assumption that Phox by becoming part of the crew assumed Starfleet Regulations. Note that Archer did not offer Phlox RRank or a position in the chain of command. Phlox was the CMO.


KTR, I disagree. Only Starfleet could put her in the chain of command after first granting her a brevet commision. Archer did not have the authority. Even a battle fielf commision was denied because She was not a member of Starfleet or a non com in Starfleet both required for a Battle Field Commision.

Archer could not put her in the chain of command or offer her a Battle field commision.



SB

Oh he definitely should have reported it, and T'Pol should have been taken out of the chain of command. But given the fact that he didn't know about it until after Azati Prime the most severe damage was done. Now THAT was a piece of extremely stupid writing.

Now, in Extereme Risk when B'Elanna was in a state of severe depression, they did something smart. She avoided the doctor, and Tom treated her injuries. Okay yeah Tom should have said something, but a boyfriend isn't required by regs to report his girlfriend when they're off duty. So as far as regs go I'm pretty sure he was covered.

Actually, I wasn't thrilled about Extreme Risk I thought it made Tom look stupid because he would have told the doc. And Chakotay justswooping in to save the day was very clunky. That said, I'll take it over Azati Prime any day of the week.

Silverbullet wrote:In Terra Orime Phlox says to Acher "When YOU asked me to become part of this crew"

It seems that Archer asked Phlox to become part of the crew. It is also a valid assumption that Phox by becoming part of the crew assumed Starfleet Regulations.

Emphasis mine. You're making an assumption and then treating it as fact. We honestly don't know that Starfleet didn't grant him a commission or if there was something in the Starfleet charter that allowed non-Starfleet officers to hold certain positions of authority that would normally require a commission. And since the Star Trek universe clearly does not always follow logic, we simply can't make assumptions.

KTR, I disagree. Only Starfleet could put her in the chain of command after first granting her a brevet commision. Archer did not have the authority. Even a battle fielf commision was denied because She was not a member of Starfleet or a non com in Starfleet both required for a Battle Field Commision.

Archer could not put her in the chain of command or offer her a Battle field commision.

Please, for the love of God, let's not start this argument again. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the show was pretty clear that in season 3, T'Pol was the XO. Period. End of story. Applying modern regulations and presumptions to a fictional organization that already had forty years of institutional WTF moments built in is frankly illogical. Put simply: Starfleet is NOT the United States Navy.

For that matter, how do you know that Archer hadn't already arranged something with Starfleet prior to their departure for the Expanse? Gah.

Why does it seem that every single discussion always come back to the same four or five debates?

Cogito wrote:In hindsight, it would be foolish to assume he paid any attention at all to human ethics, customs, regulations or laws. Quite likely, he was just following the Denobulan equivalents, whatever they might be.

Didn't Phlox explicitly say as much in "The Breach," when he pointed out that he hadn't taken the Hippocratic Oath and thus wasn't bound by it? It's logical to think that if he wasn't following human medical ethics, then he wasn't going to follow other human customs/regulations/etc. either.

Amen Rigil! I forgot to mention that B'Elanna's behavior didn't involve stealing, and didn't effect her ability to do her job and put others at risk. Also, she wasn't sneaking off to go orbital sky-diving while on duty.

Silverbullet wrote:KTR, I disagree. Only Starfleet could put her in the chain of command after first granting her a brevet commision. Archer did not have the authority. Even a battle fielf commision was denied because She was not a member of Starfleet or a non com in Starfleet both required for a Battle Field Commision.

Archer could not put her in the chain of command or offer her a Battle field commision.

Well, whether you or I or anyone else likes it (I don't) he clearly did put her in the chain of command, and...

Oh, frak it! What Rigil said above!