Hatchery

[Rigil Kent]

I sometimes have to wonder if we watched the same show.

[Asso]

So, my friends, do you understand why I don't like Phlox? I think you all know I am a doctor and doctors are not like is Phlox. Mh... at least they shouldn't.

[Asso]

I sometimes have to wonder if we watched the same show.

The show was the same, the brains (obviously) not.

[Silverbullet]

I believe we watched the same show it was the interpretation of the individual that was different.

I still belive that Phlox had the ability to relieve the captain. He cited a regulation that gave him the authority. Unless you didn't hear him say that. He was well within regulations. Archer was outof line. He bluffed Phox. It was not the lack of a regulation giving phlox the authority it was Phlox wo did not have the couruage to implement it.

In Hathcery T'Pol was fully in command of the mutiny althugh I believe she wsa taking trellium at the tme.

SB

[WarpGirl]

I thought they were pretty obvious in establishing that the captain was more akin to an Age of Sail captain, which would automatically grant the skipper a lot more leeway and power than a modern ship commander. And it's patently obvious that Starfleet isn't the United States Navy - it has evolved in some cases, devolved in others - so I don't see what the issue is.

In the series they laid things to enable them to stay in contact with Starfleet. Archer was not like a Sea Captain of the 1700's. He was never out of contact with headquarters.

Season 3. They rarely had contact with Starfleet Command. And space is big. It'll take some time for communication to be made.

Fact is Archer failed to contact Starfleet although he was able to when he did certain things that he should have reoprted such as installing T'Pol as first Officer. Starfleet would have robably told him if he did he would lose his command. that is why he did not.

Or more likely, he was exercising his own initiative and utilizing the "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission" thing that lots of officers do. He was clearly given a great deal of leeway in his command as do all Starfleet commanders based on other shows. Seriously, it seems like nothing Archer does is adequate - if he excretes ice cream, there will be complaints about the flavor!

I find it rather interesting that the one officer who seems to be escaping blame entirely is Hayes. To be honest, the fact that they had the marine (because that's what he was supposed to be, no matter what they named him) to be blindly loyal even in the face of pretty clear evidence that something's wrong was the sole problem I really had with "Hatchery." I mean really, you'd think that Hayes would be like: "Oh, hey. Every member of his command staff (who have been with him going on 3 years) is looking at the captain funny and questioning orders that truthfully make no sense. Maybe I should reconsider following these ridiculous orders." But instead, we got the brain-dead marine trope.

Thank you Thank you.

[Silverbullet]

Archer is out there exploring. Starfleet would want to be kept in the loop. When Archer set out to find the Xindi and the weapon. He was given specific orders by Starfleet.

Starfleet needed to know what Archer was doing what he was finding so if necesarry it could prepare for an attack that might be coming. Archer would be their lokout. He had to stay in Contact with Starfleet Command. Doing it and asking forgiveness later has got some junior and mid lefel officers in very hot water. Archer falls in the mid level section. For the Xindi Mission they needed a more experienced officer not a test pilot. Believe that archer would be kept on a short leash as much as possible. That he woud have to keep Starfleet comman in the loop always. True, he was fighting a lone battle often but he should have reported the battle after it was done. Starfleet did not need, want or like surprises. They had one in the Xindi Attack.

Starfleeet was Earths last line of defense. If te Xindi bnroke through then it had to stop the weapon with all of its resou rces up to an including crashings ships in to the weapon as far out in space as ossible. They would have to battle the xindi protecting the weapon.They would need as much warning as possible. that is where Archer comes in and his continuing stayingin communication with starfleet.

One big problem was tha the Vulcans sat on thier hands. Andoria too. T'Pol should have been despatched to convince the Vulcans that they wre next if Earth was destroyed.

SB

[WarpGirl]

SB I don't say this to be disrespectful but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring anyone who disagrees with you, and not even trying to take into consideration some very valid points. I fully admit my knowledge of the Military is limited, but I do know what it is not. Starfleet and humanity in ST in general is not an accurate representation of what we are right now. Therefore this arguing about how things are done now is completely pointless.

Are there ways that the episodes could have been written better and in a more realistic light? Of course! Were there some genuinely stupid things done that make no sense? Yes. We all agree on that. But we can't have a positive discussion without attempting to find a middle ground here. Otherwise there's just no point to all of this.

I need a drink.

[WarpGirl]

Far as I know Star Trek tried to keep roddenbery's original idea that Starfeet would be based on the U.s. Navy. He had Unforms, ranks, regulatons. the lot.

Okay this explains why Kirk was a model by-the-book Captain who never disobeyed an order, never faked communication difficulties to avoid Starfleet Command, and always ran his ship like the perfect Navy officer of today! Seriously...

[putaro]

Far as I know Star Trek tried to keep roddenbery's original idea that Starfeet would be based on the U.s. Navy. He had Unforms, ranks, regulatons. the lot.

Okay this explains why Kirk was a model by-the-book Captain who never disobeyed an order, never faked communication difficulties to avoid Starfleet Command, and always ran his ship like the perfect Navy officer of today! Seriously...

What, you mean McHale's Navy shouldn't be taken as a model for military operations?

[panyasan]

SB I don't say this to be disrespectful but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring anyone who disagrees with you, and not even trying to take into consideration some very valid points. I fully admit my knowledge of the Military is limited, but I do know what it is not. Starfleet and humanity in ST in general is not an accurate representation of what we are right now. Therefore this arguing about how things are done now is completely pointless.

Are there ways that the episodes could have been written better and in a more realistic light? Of course! Were there some genuinely stupid things done that make no sense? Yes. We all agree on that. But we can't have a positive discussion without attempting to find a middle ground here. Otherwise there's just no point to all of this.

I agree. For me, Starfleet almost seems to give Archer a cart blanche when it comes to stopping the Xindi. Like "Stop the Xindi and we don't care how you do it." The scene in Home, when Starfleet discussed the Xindi mission, suggest that as well.
I found this a very dangerous slope for a organization. It also puts a great burden on Archer. He is on his own - he is sailing on his own moral compass, but he could go beyond that is he feels necessary. I think his biggest mistake is that he made his own mission, not the mission of his team. He should have shared his vision with his team and worked with them.
On the other hand, T'Pol and Trip are second and third in command. They have a duty to speak up.

[WarpGirl]

One more thing TV is not meant to portray anything accurately unless its educational programming. Even then, I don't trust the so-called History Channel at all, the errors they made during the series about Imperial Russia was nothing short of an atrocity. If you want accuracy and authenticity, stick to the Discovery, and Military channels. Even then, there will be mistakes. To be completely factual stick to Sesame Street.

There is a reason why scripted shows are *fiction.*

[Cogito]

True, but the Trek production team seem to have made a token attempt at being realistic; I just wish they'd put more effort into that. I don't think it needed to detract from the stories, and it would have made it more compelling for those people who wanted to engage in the story rather than just watch the big tits and the sharp batleths and the fast ships.

[Alelou]

I'm betting they were willing to be realistic to the point that they 1) didn't have to slow things down to explain it to the audience, 2) didn't have to give up any drama, 3) wouldn't have to go over budget, and 4) didn't have to slow down the process to actually, you know, look it up or ask somebody who wasn't already in the room when they broke the story.

And number 2 would have been the prime directive, as well it should be.

[Rigil Kent]

I'm betting they were willing to be realistic to the point that they 1) didn't have to slow things down to explain it to the audience, 2) didn't have to give up any drama, 3) wouldn't have to go over budget, and 4) didn't have to slow down the process to actually, you know, look it up or ask somebody who wasn't already in the room when they broke the story.

And number 2 would have been the prime directive, as well it should be.

Here here. The show would be pretty boring if they were unnecessarily realistic. Sure, I'd like to see them make the effort, but most television shows are guilty of cutting corners.

[WarpGirl]

True, but the Trek production team seem to have made a token attempt at being realistic; I just wish they'd put more effort into that. I don't think it needed to detract from the stories, and it would have made it more compelling for those people who wanted to engage in the story rather than just watch the big tits and the sharp batleths and the fast ships.

I absolutely concur!!!! ENT and ST in general could have done loads better without sacrificing any of Alelou's points. At least VOY was completely cut off from their known quadrent to make up for the massive liberties they took. And there are really great TV shows that have set a standard and stuck to it.

Would I have enjoyed more insight into Earth's political and social structure in the 22nd century? Yes. Would I have liked details about what the role of Starfleet was politically? Yes. Would I have liked them to expound on how Starfleet transitioned into a Military Combat branch as well as a scientific and exploration organization? ABSOLUTELY! That's what I thought ENT was supposed to be all about and I was massively disappointed.