Do Vulcans cry?

[panyasan]

This morning I read a very interesting comment about Vulcan not crying, only when they are dying - in the show, not in fan fic.

Which made me wonder.... T'Pol shed one tear twice: why she thought Archer had died and when her mother dies in her arms.
So the conclusion would be that T'Pol sheds a tear when some one close or a loved one dies.

Which doesn't make sense. First, when T'Pol sheds a tear for Archer, they don't seem to be close. There maybe a sort of friendship, she may have cared for him, but close? a loved one? No.

As for her mother: that is of course some one close. But their relationship has been troubled.

Which bothers me more, is that T'Pol doesn't cry when her daughter passes away. She is clearly upset, she is grieving, but no tears. And the bond and love between a infant child and a mother is the strongest of all loves. Also, sometimes she is clearly upset, but she doesn't cry. Just like she is clearly upset and emotional when she comforts Trip when he shares his sadness about his sister (do we see a glint of a tear in her eyes?) just like she is upset when she hears about his sisters death.

Which makes me conclude that in the first situations her emotional balance (by her syndrome, by the addiction) is so disturbed, she goes beyond normal behavior. It doesn't mean she is less grieving for Trip or her daughter. IMHO she is more upset and grieving for Trip and her daughter, than for Archer and her mother.

Just my two cents.

[WarpGirl]

Please don't get mad at me for saying this because I wrote that comment. Here is my issue with Vulcans and expressing physical signs of emotion. Now this includes smiling, snarling in anger, tears, laughter you name it. Canonically, from TOS onward it is repeatedly stated that a Vulcan's control directly affects their physical health and vica versa. Spock in Pon Farr, and the pollen thing come to mind. I think that every Vulcan fan should watch the TNG episode Sarek to truly understand how important tight emotional control is vital for a Vulcan's health.

In VOY when Tuvok was mentally tortured and his control started cracking he was also in mortal physical danger. His brain was being damaged.

Now with T'Pol, I would have no problems with her shedding tears IF it was made clear that her control was compromised and she was in clear danger. This was something ENT writers were very wishy-washy with, they basically ignored the pa'nar and the Trell-D could have been handled far more effectively, (if they absolutely had to insist on it). However, T'Pol merely crying because her being im love with Trip allows her to express emotions without danger... I can't buy it.

Frankly, I bought a grieving Vulcan mother more because T'Pol was behaving like a VULCAN grieving mother. The Archer, and T'Les thing just made me hurl objects at my television.

[panyasan]

Now with T'Pol, I would have no problems with her shedding tears IF it was made clear that her control was compromised and she was in clear danger. This was something ENT writers were very wishy-washy with, they basically ignored the pa'nar and the Trell-D could have been handled far more effectively, (if they absolutely had to insist on it). However, T'Pol merely crying because her being im love with Trip allows her to express emotions without danger... I can't buy it.

Nor can T'Pol - because she does state that she experienced with Trell-D "to understand the crew better" - but when she sheds a tear (it's nothing more than that) - she is emotionally unbalanced because of the Trell-D. As for expressing her emotions without danger because she was in love with Trip - she made a totally mess of it. She couldn't control the emotions. The dream in Damage is a clear indications that things were going out of hand. The tear is just evidence of that.

Now - with her mother, it's much more difficult to make a case like that. I think she wasn't cured yet by T'Pau, she is recovering, but still it has been awhile since she was exposed to Trell-D. You can say: her mother pushed all her buttons, theirs is a lot of unfinished business between them and a lot of hurt, but if that answered the question why she cried at that moment when her mother died and not when she lost the baby.
I always have to think about the saying that the silent ones without tears on a funeral are probably the ones who grieve the most.

[WarpGirl]

With her mother, I could buy a tear IF they had continued with the pa'nar in a steady coherent manner. As I recall, Mom dies then at the very end T'Pau suddenly says "Oh I can cure that nasty little problem no sweat" (okay I'm sarcastic) it felt like the director noticed JB's tear in the death scene and said "Crap! Script person can we have T'Pau cure the pa'nar?" I could have bought it done better. I mean Spock's reaction to his father's death was more understandable...

1. He's half human and anguished expression isn't an automatic precursor to brain dammage. Uncontroled Laughter is. Does anyone remember that episode? I think it's the Appolo one.

2. He'd been incognito on Romulas for god knows how long and who knows how long he had to keep his shields as tight as possible.

3. He was having a mind-meld with a man who had melded with his father during the time his father's control was being shredded and it left a major imprint on Picard's own mind. Touching that imprint would give anyone a momentary lapse.

But ENT handled the pa'nar and the Trell-D so badly from a continuity standpoint that T'Pol's tears never seemed appropriate to the what they were trying to do in the episode.

[Kotik]

Vulcans do have the ability to express their emotions, but they suppress it. They cannot suppress it, when their control is compromised (Soval under torture, Sarek inflicted with Bendii, T'Pol stoned on Trellium). But at least theoretically, they could also weep with the control fully intact, if they decide to do so. This is why T'Pol secluded herself to the ready room, when she shed a tear for Archer. She also had a minimum of privacy, when her mother died, as both Archer and T'Pau were behind her.
We cannot know, if she shed a tear in her quarters after Elizabeths death and before Trip stopped by. I'm inclined to think that she did. This whole 'Vulcan shows one emotion and goes boom instantly'-theory is rubbish. We've seen Soval showing mild expressions of emotion all through the show and Kuvak as well as T'Pau had mild outbursts of emotional display. Spocks reaction to learning that he in fact did not kill Kirk in "Amok Time" is a clear showing of emotion.

That's why I think that occasional showings of emotional reactions are indeed common with Vulcans. The real danger lies in them allowing to run emotions free (Tolaris, Sybok)

[WarpGirl]

That contradicts the earliest ST canon and onward even ENT.

[panyasan]

Not really. Also in TOS, ENT and the other shows we see Vulcans display emotions. Not the "screaming on the top of your lungs-dying of laughter" sort of thing, but emotions like annoyance, irritation, humor, kindness". I hardly have seen a Vulcan without a sense of humor.

Vulcan have emotions - strong ones - that's the whole reason they try to control it. And every Vulcan is different -like Humans are. I see Kov and T'Pol more like "the more emotional" Vulcans than for example T'Les.

Spock's father is a good example how a Vulcan can become less in control of his emotions, but still very much himself. That emotions were dormant, now he is letting go of the control of that emotions.

I don't understand why uncontrolled laughter would be a sign of coming death for Vulcans. Does this mean Vulcans have to be careful to laugh, otherwise they die? I don't think so. Laughing - also uncontrolled - can be very healthy and is mostly a break from the negative. Now fear of death - that I would understand.

[Kotik]

During the run of ENT, display of emotions has been described as distasteful, not dangerous. What has been described (and shown) as dangerous is missing out on meditation or giving up trying to suppress emotions. The occasional outburst has never been described as a danger, only distasteful.

To make an analogy. Farting is seen as distasteful by humans, as is masturbation (by many). Yet most of us have done one or both of them, but never with company, only when we're sure that we're alone. I can se the same happen for Vulcans with an occasional smile or a showing of anger.

[panyasan]

You bring up a very interesting point - the difference between private interaction and public display.
I think in private a Vulcan may show more emotions, but in public those emotions aren't shown.
In my culture crying in public or speaking loud have long considered "not done" or any display of emotions. Things have changed, but still I wouldn't easily cry with lots of people around me.

[WarpGirl]

Okay I'll try to explain it from everything I know from TOS to ENT... The two easiest examples to use are Tuvok and Sarek: Sarek, had moods, there were things that amused him, things that irked him, things that enraged him, things that broke his heart, and of course he was very much in love with Amanda. I can't figure out if he was in love with Perrin or rlied on her for companionship and support. But that's another can of tuna...

In TOS they made certain things very clear, he had a very tenuous relationship with his son, his wife cracked him up, and the guy was easily annoyed by fools. BUT he never shouted at the fools, had a belly laugh when Amanda did something he thought was funny, and he never threw up his hands and stormed out during arguements with his son. Now in TNG when he's suffering with the Bendii, he's shedding tears at Motzart, shouting when angered and if memory serves he smashed some furiture.

Tuvok, was more tightly controled because learning contorl was NOT easy for him you could say he was developmentally challenged as a child and a youth. Therefore, if his control center cracked his brain chemistry would deteriorate quite quickly. It actually almost happened, by the end of Season 7 on VOY he was quite sick in the emotional control part of his brain. Why? Oh the usual telepthic tortures, strange alien possession, illnesses, ect... Just what you get during a regular trek series. All that strain can cause vaunerablities to other nasty things.

Mental healthOn many occasions Tuvok, and the crew of Voyager, were subjected to brain trauma and tampering. (VOY: "Waking Moments", "Persistence of Vision", "The Killing Game", "Scientific Method", "Workforce", "Workforce, Part II", "Bliss", "Unforgettable", "Repression", et al).

Towards the end of Voyager's journey it was established that Tuvok's neural peptides were deteriorating.

As his neural peptides deteriorated he began to emote more. Mainly he got more snappish, and depressed, but occasionally he had displays of positive emotions.

It's not so much that these expressions cause the damage in and of themselves. Although left unchecked they can begin to do so. But crying, laughing, raging ect... Are all signs that the part of a Vulcan's brain that is used as the control center is already damaged. It causes something like cascade failure and damages the rest of the brain.

Cultural stigmas are only a very tiny part of why Vulcans typically do not cry, laugh, or smile. There are serious physiological reasons why they keep their emotions controled like a trickle of water from a faucet. If they turn on full blast you've got the crew of the Seleya zombi-like creatures acting on paranoid-psychosis instinct. That's basically a Vulcan's natural state without discipline. Even the Romulans accept that as a fact and have their own sets of disciplines!

ENT: Couldn't decide what it wanted Vulcans to be!

[Cogito]

I've never thought of emotions as being physiologically damaging for a vulcan, but rather that vulcans have great difficulty controlling their emotions and must suppress them in order to avoid being overwhelmed. Clearly they survived before Surak taught them how to master their emotions by suppressing them. In my imagined view, some illnesses and injuries damage their ability to suppress emotions and that is a sign of severe mental damage. If the emotions then provoke further stress and damage, that could rapidly become fatal.

I don't think we were ever told what effect prolonged TD exposure had on T'Pol, but it's a recurring theme in fanfiction that it allowed her to experience emotions without being overwhelmed by them, and I can see how that would be very appealing to her.

And, without any external evidence to support it, I've sometimes thought that since emotions tend to provoke emotional reactions in others, it may be considered offensive in vulcan society to express emotions in public and hence provoke emotions in others around you. As well as being a sign of mental illness, or perhaps just a symptom of a disgraceful lack of self control. Which I suppose bears back to Kotik's point about farting in public. It might be natural, but it's generally considered rude and distasteful.

[WarpGirl]

For anyone who has Netflix they now have TNG DS9 and VOY the complete series, as well as all of the TOS movies, I think TAS is on DVDs... However, if you look up all of the episodes about vulcan control you can get them instantly on Netflix. It is both a physiological and cultural issue.

[Transwarp]

I've seen all the VOY episodes, and Tuvok was your typical tightly-controlled Vulcan, but I don't recall seeing anything that answered the chicken-egg question raised by this topic:

Do Vulcans die if they express emotion, or do they express emotion more readily when dying?

I recall the TOS episode where the bad guy takes over Spock and makes him laugh hysterically, and McCoy yells that it's killing him, but that could just be ignorance on McCoy's part, or an exaggeration to get the bad guy to stop.

There are some things that bug me about the whole 'Vulcans die if they show emotions' belief:

1) Pre-Surak Vulcans were apparently uninhibited and THEY didn't die.

2) Some post-Surak Vulcans are uninhibited and THEY don't die. (The so called 'Vulcans Without Logic')

3) Other post-Surak Vulcans are uninhibited and THEY don't die. (The Romulans, who left Vulcan at the time of Surak because they wanted nothing to do with his disciplines)

It seems to me that Vulcans control their emotions because they're unpleasantly strong, not because they die if they don't.

[putaro]

Perhaps it's being forced to lose control that is especially dangerous. So, if a Vulcan voluntarily chooses to let their emotions out it's OK, but if their control is overridden, either by external force or because the emotions or so powerful they can control them, that can cause damage.

[Alelou]

Transwarp's logic is excellent. Even Sarek wasn't dying from emotion in TNG. Lack of control was just a symptom, like memory loss in Alzheimer's.

It also makes sense to me that T'Pol's control was simply impaired when we saw her cry actual tears, rather than just watering up a little. I don't think crying is the indicator whether someone is truly feeling a lot, in any case. I cry way too easily, over incredibly stupid stuff like the music in a windows commercial. I think a lot of it is just hormonal. Put something REALLY bad in front of me and I tend to go numb and retreat into routine or organizing. A good friend of mine just lost her father and this is EXACTLY what she's doing. She's just handling all the details and maybe getting a little angrier at her brothers than is exactly justified. That's how she's coping with it for now. I hope she'll get to do her grieving eventually, but I don't think it means she loved her father any less if she doesn't.