"Missing scenes from Season Four" discussion

[Kotik]

I think it would be kind of interesting if they had to someday cope with a little marital fatigue like the rest of us old married farts do, but I'm not going there.

Considering the sort of view on men you convey in some of your stories lately, I'm surprised you're married in the first place SB's view on T'Les is a bit radical, so don't get distracted by that. The whole honour-bound-to-marry sh*t was contrived, because the writers were too chicken to handle a romance. Why they think that fans would prefer the ridiculous will-they-won't-they of S4 is anyone's guess. Maybe they just didn't give a sh*t.

I think you handled it well. I'm the world's most useless reader, when it comes to relationship-angsty stuff and I made it through all 38 chapters of your S4, so I think you did a brilliant job I only have one major niggle with your rendition of "Home" and that's having Trip being ordered to attend the wedding. I think that diminishes the cojones he showed by staying, instead of running away to pity himself.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, actually I was a bit easy on T'Les. In the episode she would not look T'Pol in the eye. She turned away from T'Pol while talking to her. T'Les knew she was headed in to the Forge to look for the Katra. Why should she assume that she knew best for her daughter. T'Pol had been a security agent who had many dangerous assignments. She was a grown woman who made her own decisions. Trip showed her that she had freedom of choice in Breaking the ice. She exercised that in Harbinger. Mama was way out of line. She knew Trip loved her daughter and suspected that T'Pol loved Trip too. That T'Pol had said she wanted nothing to do with Koss.

Wasn't it revealed in a later episode that mama was guilty of stealing things from the acadmy.

Anyway, I never had any use for T'Les as a person or as a parent.

But, hey, that is just me.

Damned writers, as you say didn't have the courage to write a romance and stop this will they, won't they crap.

People refer back to JAG and the will they, won;t they in that series. What they forget is that JAG was well written, Had many great episodes and the romance was so low keyed it was forgotten most of the time because the series was such a great one. Only in the end was it tacked on so Harm and his lady could get married.

Enterprise was not well written at all and things like home was a filler. We got the Forge Arc next. Which offended me no end. But you all know the reason for that.

SB

[putaro]

Trip and T'Pol are mated and bonded (I beleive) in this story. In most FanFics that means they are married according to the Vulcns.

Fanfics are not canon, and what "most fanfics" do does not constrain me here -- in this series, what actually happened on the show is the only thing that constrains me. Let's say that in this era Vulcans don't speak or study much about mating bonds except in an anecdotal sort of way.

I'm with Alelou on this one. Remember that Spock was bonded to T'Pring as part of their betrothal. That apparently didn't happen with T'Pol and Koss and I would say it's because the whole "marriage bond" thing was not taken seriously.

My take on Vulcans of the era is that almost everything "mystical" was purged at some point. ENT never went into the why's or hows of it, but it was pretty clear that it had occurred. Mind melding was right out, marriage bonds were more like folk lore. Remember that T'Pol said:

There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

[panyasan]

I feel the need to defend T'Les. Vulcan society is a society with arranged marriages. The fact that you can develop feelings for your husband in a marriage, that's all very nice for you, but that's not the reason why you married. Like T'Les told Trip she hadn't got much feelings for her husband when she got married, but she developed feelings for him.
For a Vulcan, this system works. They only have to point to the divorce rates of societies that are based on romantic feelings.

(Another thing: while as parents we probably think we except the choices our children will make when they get married - but let's say your daughter or son ends up with some one from a totally different culture - from a tribe in the jungle of South America for example - would we be so happy about it? Maybe T'Les shares the same views as most Vulcans: that Humans are alien, don't control their emotions, maybe a bit less developed as their society? Good thing is that T'Les came to like Trip, but then it was already too late).

There is also another thing to consider. On one side of the spectrum, you have a society where the desires of the individual comes first. The "it feels good to me, so it's right"-society. On the other side of this spectrum you have societies that put the community first. The need of the many outweighed the need of the few-society. Or the society that says "when you see a nail sticking out, you hammer it right in."

T'Pol grew up in the last society, the society Trip grew up in put more emphasis on what an individual wants.

Home pictures an cultural clash in all its painful consequences.

As for the bond: I agree that the bond is that sort of thing that every Vulcan knows about, but never speaks about. I was surprised T'Pol assumed that she is bonded to Trip, but it makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is that she expects Trip to understand he is bonded. She hardly understand it herself as a Vulcan - why should he?

[Silverbullet]

I am not sure but isn't there something about a woman after marriage on Vulcan moving in to her husband's hhouse to live there for a year so they can form a bond. Also mate. Then they are really considered as married.


In this story Trip and T'Pol are mated and Bonded. T'Pol seems to know this. They are married in Vuclan culture and tradition.

Marriage to Koss would not be valid. T'Pol already has a husband.

I cannot believe that T'Pol would leave Trip completely in the dark. She would tell him as much as she knows and understands. He would have some idea that he had a legal right to his wife, T'Pol, as her husband.

The actual Episode left more questions than answers.

How did Koss know that T'Pol was returning to Vulcan. Doubt she sent him a letter telling him that she was coming and bringing a friend along.

How was the letter waiting for T'Pol if Koss did not know she was returning? Apparently only T'Les knew she was coming back to Vulcan and that was all. She did not know that T'Pol was bringing along Commander Tucker.

T'Les obviously knew she was going in to the Forge to look for the Katra. Why did she assume it was her duty to get T'Pol married to a man that T'Pol told her mother she did not want.

I often wondered why Trip attended the wedding. He said it was because he did not want to put more of a burden on T'Pol. It should have been apparent that she was under a burden but not by anything that Trip had done but that she was going to marry Koss when she cared more for Trip. That kiss on the cheek should have told Trip something.

I remember Trip asking T'Pol what T'Les knew about them. They must have had some kind of affair going on then. Perhaps an intimate one.

SB

[panyasan]

I am not sure but isn't there something about a woman after marriage on Vulcan moving in to her husband's hhouse to live there for a year so they can form a bond. Also mate. Then they are really considered as married.

I remember that KTR came with the idea that Vulcan marriage counted as marriage when three requirements were fulfilled. I used them in my story The Captives. One was the ritual as seen in Home, the second one was to live together for a year, the last one was that the marriage had to be consummated. In many old cultures, the first (ritual) plus the third (consummation) counted as marriage. Maybe later on, the bond was seen as part of marriage as well, I don't think in T'Pol's time that's the case.
(In my own country a church wedding isn't considered legal if you don't have your wedding license, which you only can get at city hall. Without that license, a pastor can not marry you.)

So maybe this marriage isn't complete. Which would explain that T'Pol's marriage is annulled in the end. What I understand of an annulment, it means the marriage wasn't a real one.

[Silverbullet]

On screen and in stories T'Pol and Koss did not consumate the marriage. T'Pol hid out in a retreat ran by some nuns who hid her until she could sneak aboard a ship and return to the Enterprise.

In our world an uncomsumated marriage is not a marriage in the sight of God and therefore can be annuled. This was a good secape clause in the dark ages for kings who wanted to get rid of a wife without the mess of having her head chpped off. In the Catholic Church with no divorce a claim of no consumation of the marriage could lead to an annulment.

There could be some funny things though such as a king with children by his wife who claimed the marriage was not consumated. Enough money under the table and anything can be done.

I don't know ho actually came up with this but I think it was a good developemnt.

Canon? What is Canon? What Roddenbury laid down or what later writers added.

There have been those who claim that if a male does not get his ashes hauled he will die in Pon Farr. Yet Spock, gave the female to the other guy and returned to Enterprise without any Sex and he was just fine. Appaently Roddenbury didn't go along with screw or die if you don't.

I often wished that Roddenbury had wrote down what he intended for his main species and characters. He seemed to leave it up to the viewers which can be messy as there are so many viewpoints.

Anyway, the marriage between T'Pol and Koss was not consumated. What the Vulcans thought of that I wonder.

If we go along with the woman living in the mans home, The Enterprise was Trip's home for over a year after T'Pol did the dirty with him. So they were mated, she lived in his home for a year and the coupling was consumated. they are married.

SB

[Asso]

...If we go along with the woman living in the mans home, The Enterprise was Trip's home for over a year after T'Pol did the dirty with him. So they were mated, she lived in his home for a year and the coupling was consumated. they are married.SB

This is a wonderful idea. It really deserves to be developed.

T'Pol, to the Vulcan priest, who's putting her on the spot: "I? Married? With Tr ... ahem... with Commander Tucker?"

The priest to T'Pol (as he raises his eyebrow with an evident sly air and clearly amused): "My dear, have you not heard what Silverbullet said ? You know, he's right, really."

T'Pol (rolling her eyes and vexed - but not too much): "I've heard. And (a shadow of a smile, perhaps?) Silverbullet is absolutely right, I must admit."

Mh ... and this sound? What is it? It seems a chortle. Naughty and ironic. Smug, too.
Could it be him? Trip?

[Silverbullet]

Thank you Asso for the vote of confidence.

I read somewhere in an interview (whose I forget) that a deleted scene in home showed Trip and T'Pol kissing in the garden before going in to mothers house. I gues this would be somewhat of a killer for Home as it would say that Trip and t'Pol were lovers and probably more.

SB

[Weeble]

Don't worry Alelou I still love ya.,

Great thread many interesting angles. Oh and I like T'Les, sorry SB could be because my mom died when i was a teenager. I cannot imagine the pressure T'Les was under. Remember this is the V'Las Administration. A bit on the ruthless side. I see the mistake as T'Pol going to Vulcan at all. Starfleet cannot help her once she's there. She most likely did not know the extent of the deviousness and flat dishonesty of the Vulcan Government. Remember this is a society based on conformity with the assumption that those in charge are good guys. Aint socialism great!

More than likely, and unbeknownst to us poor innocents, Alelou was consulted by the Enterprise writing team and asked to ply her amazing angst skills to create an episode that would drive us nuts and set the tone for the future. Had to be, no one else (maybe Dinah) had the skills to pull it off. I fear there is no solution other than to keep reading the missing scenes and hope that the angst muse goes on vacation and we get some relief.

Weeble
aka Steelchaser

[Silverbullet]

Steelchaser, I seem to be the only one who dislikes T'Les.

To me she is like the rest of the Vulcans disonhest, devious and not above using her daughter for her own ends regardless of the harm it would do. Reminds me of my own mother.

Looking forward to your next chaper, when can we expect it?

SB

[Distracted]

There have been those who claim that if a male does not get his ashes hauled he will die in Pon Farr. Yet Spock, gave the female to the other guy and returned to Enterprise without any Sex and he was just fine.

It's also canon that Vulcans have a choice when it comes to Ponfarr. They can consummate it OR they can engage in mortal combat. Killing their opponent purges the blood fever just as effectively as consummation. Spock was convinced he'd killed Kirk, thus his blood fever was purged.

I like the idea of living on Enterprise being the equivalent of the Vulcan's practice of a year of cohabitation. Although I've always assumed Vulcans who cohabitated for bonding purposes shared a bedroom, I suppose just sharing the same "roof" might qualify. In many human cultures and at many times in human history spouses haven't shared a bedroom.

[Alelou]

Remember this is a society based on conformity with the assumption that those in charge are good guys. Aint socialism great!

Personally I believe you can have a culture that deeply embraces conformity with ANY economic system, but then I also believe it's best if we stay out of politics here.

I was fascinated to read that in Bali, there are really just four first names, and they are assigned according to birth order -- you get named for whether you're kid number one, two, three, or four. And then the numbers get recycled if you came along after number four. Talk about having a system for slotting people into. I don't think even any of our aliens have a system quite that regimented. (Not counting the Borg, I suppose.)

(SB, is it possible that some interferin' mommas in your own romantic history have soured you on maternal pressure from Vulcan mommas too? You really are very hard on T'Les.)

I was hoping someone would jump in and tell Kotik I don't hate men. Oh well. You supply a little dark poetic justice to just ONE Tellarite dude and your reputation is ruined forever...

[panyasan]

I was hoping someone would jump in and tell Kotik I don't hate men. Oh well. You supply a little dark poetic justice to just ONE Tellarite dude and your reputation is ruined forever...

Well, if you are labelled "to hate men" for writing about a love-struck Tellarite, I am in big trouble. I did find the ending of that story a real twist, but also a bit amusing.

As for liking T'Les: I don't like her actions, forcing T'Pol into a marriage. But I get where she is coming from.

[Asso]

Just for the sake of honesty and truth, even I felt and still feel T'Less as a figure far from clear. Perhaps the intent of the authors was to show the anguish of a mother struggling with a rebellious daughter and in a situation she was unable to deal with, as mother and mother Vulcan, for more.

But, to my eyes and in my perception, the result has been to make her one of those mothers who are unable to meet (to understand and comprehend) the feelings and needs of their children, which is really sad and serious. And unfortunately there are mothers like this, even on Vulcan, I think.

On the other hand it seemed to me to perceive in the episode a feeling of acrimony underground, I would say just acrimony, between T'Pol and her mother. I do not think things went well between the two of them, and it took the death of T'Less, with her last words of pride for her daughter (slightly late, however, don't you believe?) to create a bit of closeness between her and her daughter.

Yeah, T'Pol has cried on that occasion.

But because she has lost her mother or for all that there could have been between them and that there had never been? And that could not be anymore.

No, honestly I do not like T'Less and I must say that it is not impossible or difficult for me to believe that she may have conspired in the shadows to bring Koss to do what he has done, as Silverbullet suggests.

I do not deny that her intentions might be good, but (even though I am Italian) it is not true that the end justifies the means.
Indeed, to be honest, if it were really in this way, even the end per se would be bad and wrong.

However, do not worry: there is anyway someone I dislike even more than T'Less.
Do you have fresh in your minds a certain Koss?

However, I must resign myself: I am perfectly aware that the entire episode was built to make the romance between Trip and T'Pol even more difficult than it already was.
Angst. It is well known: the greater part of people love angst. So, why waste such a golden opportunity? Such a succulent opportunity?