Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:02 am

Transwarp wrote:@ Marchale: You said "As far as fraternization goes, yeah - I think it's pretty silly having rules against it"

I have to respectfully disagree. Consider this example. You and I are serving in the same department. We're both the same rank, but I'm sleeping with our boss because she's a smoking hot Vulcan babe.

Lucky man.

As for the non-fraternization rules.
Let me tell you something that perhaps may sound unpleasant to the ears of someone.
Prohibit the 'not proibibile' should be prohibited. And in any case it is impossible. Don't you think that history and everyday life teach it enough?
Do not fight against what you can not fight.
Accept it and use it. For everyone's good.

Yes, as Marchale, I think it's pretty silly having rules against fraternization.

The rules are made to be circumvented: if they are indeed needed, at least, in building them, try to make them acceptable, possible to be followed. They will work better.
Maybe.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
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And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Kotik » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:55 am

Asso, both you and WG make it sound as if the no-frat rules are there to make it a punishable offense to fall in love with someone. That's just not true.

Let's take WG's example of the Commander and the Lt. jg and play out a few scenarios:

1.
Let's look at the case WG described. He loves her and does nothing about it. That's what is called professional conduct and he is in no violation of any regulations -> no consequences

2.
Let's say he writes an unduly positive report about her during crew evaluation, because he loves her. That's a violation of professional conduct. Still no offense against the no-frat rules, but one against professional conduct, which would most likely earn him a reprimand and likely a reassignment, too.

3.
Let's say he decides to 'do something about it' and he invites the Lt. j.g. on a date when they're both off-duty. There are many people in the top brass who don't like that, but (at least in Germany) this is still no punishable offense,

4.
Let's say they both commit to a relationship and hide it from their superiors. That's a clear violation of the no-frat rules.

5.
Let's say they both commit to a relationship and the Commander goes to his superiors and reports the fact. He will be reassigned to a different unit and neither of them will be punished. In fact they are allowed to see each other during off-duty hours. Meetings for personal reasons or even public displays of affection during duty hours are a taboo though and would be punished. Also, if their relationship interfers with duty, for instance if the Commander is sloppy on the job, because the two of them have been rutting like rabbits for days, then trouble is heading his way. But if both stay professional on the job, the army has no business meddling with their affairs.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:05 am

Kotik wrote:Asso, both you and WG make it sound as if the no-frat rules are there to make it a punishable offense to fall in love with someone. That's just not true.

See? Words are always understood in the way in which you want to understand, in perfect good faith, sure. It is inevitable. (See another thread)
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Transwarp » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:49 am

WarpGirl wrote:About the Frat regs... I say they're worthless for ONE reason. People will still break them.

A very poor reason for invalidating a law or reg, don't you think?

Kotik wrote: I suppose that they are pretty similar to our regs, considering that the post-war Bundeswehr was established with substential input from the US of A and Great Britain.

Kotik is correct. The US Army does not prohibit personal relations between subordinates and superiors. You can fall in love with your CO, even marry her, and not be sent to prison or given a dishonorable discharge! You just get reassigned to a different unit so the potential for favoritism never arises.

I personally believe that no-frat regs are essential to an effective military service, which I suppose is interesting, given that my fan-fic universe is one of the few out there where TnT are openly married AND serving on the same ship IN a subordinate-superior relationship!

Go figure.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:57 am

Transwarp wrote:I personally believe that no-frat regs are essential to an effective military service, which I suppose is interesting, given that my fan-fic universe is one of the few out there where TnT are openly married AND serving on the same ship IN a subordinate-superior relationship!

Go figure.

The literary universe of a writer is much more revealing (and perhaps, even, truer) of the cold reasonings with which he is often brought to express himself.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:03 pm

Okay, I can see the point where favoritism could be implied and in a military (or quasi-military) type setting it could be a matter of life and death. But regardless whether fraternization is acted on or not, there's no getting around the fact that a boss will naturally feel closer to some subordinates than others. I mean, look at how much more often Archer dined with Trip and T'Pol rather than say Malcolm or Hoshi. I think the key there is just in being professional enough to not let your feelings cloud your judgement about doing what's right and fair regardless of how you feel about it emotionally. Like even though Archer no doubt favored Trip and T'Pol over other members of his crew, that didn't stop him from putting them in harm's way when it was their turn to go on a dangerous mission or whatever. But thats just a matter of being mature and actng like a professional.

In my own experience, I think both Rick and I acted very professional around work. He didn't show me any favoritism on the job and if anything was tougher on me than others so that nobody would suspect what was going on between us after work. Tim (our big boss) came very close to firing both of us when we were eventually caught, but it had been going on for nearly a year before that happened without anyone suspecting a thing. (Tim had just dropped by Rick's apartment one night after work about a rush job that just came up and there I was so we got caught red handed). But it was ridiculous needing to sneak around as if we were doing something wrong. Knowing you could get fired for who you fell in love with - just how ridiculous sounding is that? Like I said, I tried like hell denying my feelings for him at first, but it didn't help. (BTW, we didn't do anything at work, he just invited me over to his place after work one night and one thing led to another from there, but we kept it totally away from work because knowing how Tim felt about it, we were risking our jobs if we were caught). But it was a serious relationship, we came very close to getting married three times in a little over three years there.

But anyway, while I can see why fraternization could be a challenge in a military type setting where lives could be at stake, if a boss is mature and professional enough to not let his/her emotions cloud their judgment about whats fair and right (such as Archer putting Trip and T'Pol in danger at times rather than risking someone else's life); well, I just find fraternization rules to be rather ridiculous and insulting to the people involved. Both Rick and I felt like what we did outside of work was none of Tim's damn business in the first place, that was our private lives and had nothing to do with work - and for Tim to assign Gerald to be my new supervisor so that neither Rick nor I would take advantage of the situation, that was insulting to both of us. (and I'm sure Gerald felt pretty uncomfortable about it too). I mean, we had been sneaking around for close to a year behind Tim's back (as well as several other co-workers too) and were "professional" enough on the job so nobody suspected a thing. It had nothing to do with the job, that just happened to be the place where I met Rick; though with him being my boss, I tried to deny my feelings for him at first - although that didn't help at all, because you can't control how you feel inside and if those feelings become strong enough, well - I'm not sure if you can control how you behave when you're in love either, I know I gave up trying to control it - like Seven of Nine said, resistance is futile. And I think having fraternization rules are pretty futile too. People will do it anyway, you can't control how you feel inside towards others, you just have to be enough of a mature professional on the job to not let your feelings cloud your judgement about doing whats fair and right there, and that should be expected of anyone on a job, just like showing up for work and doing your job is expected of a person. Ahh, I don't know if Im making any sense here, but it just feels degrading having rules about fraternization, like don't you think I'm intelligent enough to know how to behave professionally, or do you think I'm some sort of low class moron who would try to take advantage of the situation? I can't speak for others who've fraternized, but I wish Rick would've been anyone other than my boss because it really sucked needing to sneak around like we were doing something wrong that almost cost us our jobs at the time. You can't regulate feelings and it's insane having work rules governing your life outside your job; it's not like he was my boss in bed and we sure tried like hell to keep it a deep dark secret around work. Well, thats just my opinion.
Last edited by marchale on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Asso » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:19 pm

A long, true and heartfelt speech.
A speech filled with reason, logic, almost peremptory in its irrefutability.
A speech full of passion impossible to counter.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:08 pm

Asso wrote:A long, true and heartfelt speech.
A speech filled with reason, logic, almost peremptory in its irrefutability.
A speech full of passion impossible to counter.


Well, thank you for saying that, Asso - that was very kind of you. I just feel bad for anyone involved in a fraternization thing because it seems so cruel and wrong to me; and having 'been there, done that' myself, I know what it feels like inside to have to sneak around over something nobody should have to sneak around about. Anyway, it was long ago but it still brought up some feelings that I'm surprised still hurt almost as much now as they did way back then.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Silverbullet » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:31 pm

Good Morning. Lots of posts to read.

I guess the core of this non Frat is possible favoritism. That is a good reason for those rules.

However, there is a skunk lurkiing around. anyone know a world class brown noser who worms his way in to the favor of the boss. He avoids the dirty jobs that others gets. He is shown favoritism. Gets the promotion when it comes up. That does exist. Non frat rules cannot prevent that but it is just as dangerous. Beause the brown noeser willl never be put in a dangerous position. Happens.

It has been some 50 years since I left the air Force. Many things have changed. I cannot speak for the modern military.

At one time there were regs (before the UMCJ) that said if an enlisted man commited adultry with an Officers wfie he would be sentenced to 20 years in prison but if an officer commited adultry with the wife of an enlistedman nothng wold happen to him. Before the UMCJ the military was very class concious (sp)

The non frat rules never were much trouble when was in the service. Very few women in command positions.

My mind is mush right now. Must have my coffee and perhaps then I can make some sense

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:47 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Good Morning. Lots of posts to read.

I guess the core of this non Frat is possible favoritism. That is a good reason for those rules.

However, there is a skunk lurkiing around. anyone know a world class brown noser who worms his way in to the favor of the boss. He avoids the dirty jobs that others gets. He is shown favoritism. Gets the promotion when it comes up. That does exist. Non frat rules cannot prevent that but it is just as dangerous. Beause the brown noeser willl never be put in a dangerous position. Happens.

It has been some 50 years since I left the air Force. Many things have changed. I cannot speak for the modern military.

At one time there were regs (before the UMCJ) that said if an enlisted man commited adultry with an Officers wfie he would be sentenced to 20 years in prison but if an officer commited adultry with the wife of an enlistedman nothng wold happen to him. Before the UMCJ the military was very class concious (sp)

The non frat rules never were much trouble when was in the service. Very few women in command positions.

My mind is mush right now. Must have my coffee and perhaps then I can make some sense

SB


Well, I sure hope that I didn't sound like a brown noser to you, SB - even though I was sleeping with my boss. I hate suck-ups like that and like I said before, I think if anything Rick was tougher on me on the job because we were worried about getting caught - and I didn't like the fact that he was my boss; that just made a kinda rocky romance all the more difficult to deal with there because of that.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Cogito » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:47 pm

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has brought up "the needs of the many" yet. It seems to me like the perfect resolution to the issue of fraternisation and partiality. On a generational E2 ship crewed by people who were all related or close friends, they must surely have encountered this problem. But if you believe that somebody genuinely puts the welfare of the crew above their own personal preferences, then giving them preferential treatment (choosing somebody else for that suicide mission) would be a personal betrayal of everything they stood for. If you truly believe in and live by the principle that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, then preferential treatment seems inconceivable. Or, as T'Pol put it: she had to be certain that she could give the command that would lead to Trip's death before she could accept command of a ship with him on the crew.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Transwarp » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:16 pm

marchale wrote:Well, I sure hope that I didn't sound like a brown noser

You sounded human to me.

marchale wrote: I think if anything Rick was tougher on me on the job

I'm sure he was quite scrupulous about avoiding favoritism... but there were very likely other employees who would have seen evidence of favoritism, even where none exists. That is *also* human nature (as is falling in love). Remember, these policies aren't just to prevent favoritism, but also the PERCEPTION of favoritism.

Also remember, such policies aren't just for intimate relations between superiors and subordinates, but also cover other types of interpersonal dealings to protect subordinates from abuses of power. (As an example, a supervisor should not be soliciting charitable donations from his subordinates. Even if the supervisor does not gain personally from the transaction, it can still put the employee in the awkward position of having to say no to his boss which many are not comfortable doing.)

So I still maintain that overall, fraternization policies are a GOOD thing for human organizations, especially military ones. Civilian organizations are more problematic, since there is that fine line between the needs of the company and those things that are none of the company's business. Unlike the military, when you join a company, you don't swear an oath to uphold it's bylaws and you don't give up any of your constitutional rights while serving. I would also agree that generational ships, or ships on extended missions of exploration would need modifications to the rules.

Cogito wrote:I'm kind of surprised that nobody has brought up "the needs of the many" yet.

That would work for Vulcans maybe, but us humans have a poor track record with that whole 'needs of the many' thing.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby Silverbullet » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:37 pm

Marc, I did NOT mean you. There is a vast difference between an office romance and a Brown Noser. Often the supervisor is not aware he has fallen in to the brown nosers snare. They can be insideous. To the others the BN is obvious but he isn't alway so to the supversivor or boss. You don't fit that mold.

Transwarp speaking of charitable donations. I can remeber inthe Air Force while they still had pay call and one got paid in cash. A Sergeant could be standing just to the side of the end of the pay line by the paymaster. He woud ask if you wanted to donate to the Red Cross. There was no overt threat but KP happened with regularity. So one cheerfuly tossed in a buck and walked off. When pay started coming in checks that stopped.

As far as the Gererational ship goes. I should thhink once Archer okayed marriage between the crew those No Frat rules went out of the window possibly with the exception of the captain. With only a few women the scramble for a mate would be hampered by those rules. There must have been those who had been secretly attracted to one another but were of different ranks who now could openly reveal their feelings and do something about them with the blessing of the Captain if the rules were tossed.

In some societies there are unwritten non frat rules. India with its caste system which is supposed to be illegal but is alive and well there is no intermarriage between castes. A Brahmin will not marry an untouchable, period. I guess there are other societies which are close to that.

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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:54 pm

Transwarp wrote:
marchale wrote:Well, I sure hope that I didn't sound like a brown noser

You sounded human to me.

marchale wrote: I think if anything Rick was tougher on me on the job

I'm sure he was quite scrupulous about avoiding favoritism... but there were very likely other employees who would have seen evidence of favoritism, even where none exists. That is *also* human nature (as is falling in love). Remember, these policies aren't just to prevent favoritism, but also the PERCEPTION of favoritism.

Also remember, such policies aren't just for intimate relations between superiors and subordinates, but also cover other types of interpersonal dealings to protect subordinates from abuses of power. (As an example, a supervisor should not be soliciting charitable donations from his subordinates. Even if the supervisor does not gain personally from the transaction, it can still put the employee in the awkward position of having to say no to his boss which many are not comfortable doing.)

So I still maintain that overall, fraternization policies are a GOOD thing for human organizations, especially military ones. Civilian organizations are more problematic, since there is that fine line between the needs of the company and those things that are none of the company's business. Unlike the military, when you join a company, you don't swear an oath to uphold it's bylaws and you don't give up any of your constitutional rights while serving. I would also agree that generational ships, or ships on extended missions of exploration would need modifications to the rules.

Cogito wrote:I'm kind of surprised that nobody has brought up "the needs of the many" yet.

That would work for Vulcans maybe, but us humans have a poor track record with that whole 'needs of the many' thing.



Well, thank you for saying that. Yeah, I could see where if we hadn't been as careful around work as what we were that someone could've perceived favoritism even if none was shown, but fortunately I spent most of my time at work alone in a little room in the basement and he was the only one who ever had a reason to come downstairs unless I had to ask a few of the big strong guys around there to carry heavy mailing bags upstrairs or have them bring down my supplies. So we had a lot of private conversations no one else was around to hear. But even though we had a lot of privacy we still didn't do anything physically because not only would that have been embarassing if someone had walked in on anything, but ahhh, how can I put this nicely - it's not always easy for a guy to hide the fact he's feeling aroused; and if he had been downstairs long enough for me to alieviate that problem for him people would've been suspicious of that as well too.

But I don't think anyone was suspicious or perceived any favoritism there as he was actually a bit of a hard ass on me around other co-workers and I was actually pretty mouthy back at him when I felt he was carrying it a bit too far. Like in front of several others I told him he had a letter missing from his name, often told him where he could stick it, ocassionally gave him the finger, etc. (It was a factory a church was sponsering full of mainly ex-convicts (of which Rick was one of them), our big boss Tim was a minister (who no doubt disapproved of our "sinful fornication" as much as the fraternization) and as Tim was rarely around to see what was actually going on there in the factory, well - that kind of mouthing back in a place where Rick occasionally had to break up fights and even had to call in the police if things got too far out of hand - well, I'm sure if anyone thought anything was going on between us in the basement, it was that we were probably fighting down there. Which we occasionally were (the night he initially proposed to me he confessed to having a crack addiction - which he was also keeping a deep dark secret around work; and I naively thought I could cure him of) our broken engagements resulted from my catching him getting high behind my back after swearing he was going to go straight and after the third time it happened, I just quit my job and told him I never wanted to see him again. That was back in 1995. Anyway, I'm sure nobody perceived favoritism because everyone seemed really shocked that we were involved when we finally did get caught by Tim. (BTW, I kind of thought Trip and T'Pol might end up together by the way they initially disliked each other; things were pretty rocky between Rick and I too and I think that can happen when there's a strong sexual chemistry involved. Anyway, I wasn't surprised to see them get involved considering how they they initially fought like cats and dogs to begin with).

But anyway, I digressed here. (sorry about that ) Yeah, okay I think you're probably right on how a person could take advantage of an underling if rules weren't in place to try to prevent it; and given the number of sexual harassment charges filed and lots of folks being dissatisfied with their treatment on their jobs because of brown nosing by others or their bosses blatant favoritisms too - maybe it is necessary to enforce that. But it does make it mean for folks who do fall in love with their boss and have to sneak around and be extra careful that no favoritism is shown towards their loved one. I know Rick and I occasionally had a few close calls there that were difficult to deal with and if we didn't love our jobs so much, it would've been really easy to give in to the temptation at work sometimes. But yeah, I can sure see how someone unscrupulous could take advantage of someone or not play fair towards others. So okay, I give in - fraternization rules are needed to protect folks from those who would take advantage of others or treat non-favored employees unfairly.
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Re: Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

Postby marchale » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:20 pm

Silverbullet wrote:Marc, I did NOT mean you. There is a vast difference between an office romance and a Brown Noser. Often the supervisor is not aware he has fallen in to the brown nosers snare. They can be insideous. To the others the BN is obvious but he isn't alway so to the supversivor or boss. You don't fit that mold.
Sb


Okay, thats cool - I just didn't want you (or anyone else here) to think I was trying to score any brownie points with Rick (as far as the job was concerned) when I had him under the covers, thats all. I hated the fact that he was my boss and that we had to sneak around so we wouldn't put our jobs in jeopardy or so our co-workers wouldn't perceive any favoritism. Anyway, I didn't think you thought I was sucking up there - but anytime you tell folks you slept with your boss (especially telling it in public around strangers who don't know what type of a person you are, well, I just wanted to clarify the fact that I think we worked hard to keep it professional enough around work so that I wasn't shown any favoritism there, nor would I have wanted to be given any favoritism either. I hate suck-ups and its tough not being perceived as one when you are in bed with your boss, But I didn't take any offense by that at all, I just didn't want to risk anyone misunderstanding our fraternization as possibly being that type of thing. Because really, I would've given anything at the time if Rick would've been anyone except my boss. I just met and fell in love with him there, but it had nothing to do with our jobs. Our jobs were just a pain in the ass making our romance more complicated, thats all.
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