Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

[putaro]

It's pretty common in fan fic to have TnT sneaking around to avoid getting in trouble about the "fraternization rules" but where did those come from?

Way back in "Breaking the Ice", Archer tells the school kids when they ask about dating "Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship. Most of our crew share quarters with at least one other person, so it wouldn't exactly be practical." So, there's no general non-fraternization rule (unless one got added later but I don't think it's ever mentioned).

T'Pol claims in Fallen Hero that "Starfleet forbids officers from fraternizing with subordinates." You could take that as meaning that you're not supposed to fraternize with someone in your chain of command or that you're not supposed to fraternize with people of lower ranks.

In Raijin, T'Pol says: "We're both senior officers. If we were pursuing a romantic relationship it wouldn't be Lieutenant Reed's concern, would it?" She seems to be saying that there's no actual rule against the two of them having a relationship.

So, any thoughts on this?

[WarpGirl]

Yes Sloppy WRITING! The truth is Starfleet never had frat rules like in most modern militaries on earth today. Kirk couls and did flirt with subordinates, although I doubt he ever crossed that line when not under the influence of aliens. Captains are usually vehemently discouraged from having relationships with underlings, but in Starfleet it isn't a court marshal offense say like in JAG or Stargate.

Riker got involved with Ro Laren, (an ensign under his direct command) and he MARRIED a woman under his direct command! And there are dozens of other examples. My favorite being they were both senior to each other at various points.

To tell the truth I find Starfleet's policy enlightened. For all the frat rules in the military, relationships happen, and a lot of nasty stuff also that happens that could probably be avoided if the military didn't have frat rules to begin with. That said I do agree with the basic principle of why they exist. TnT have a distinct advantage because T'Pol is vulcan and basically shut off those feelings during a crises.

[Silverbullet]

There didn't seem to be any fraternization rules in the other Star Treks. In TNG Both worf and Riker had a romance with the counselor Troi. Think there were ohter cases in TNG too. TOS never seemed to cover that issue. DS 9 I guess there was hanky panjky going on between people of differnt ranks. In Voyager Paris and Torres were a thing even though they were of ht e smae rank they still would be under that rule. Really only Series where the fraternization rule came up was in ENT. Didn't seem to stop T'Pol from seducing Trip or later kissing him in public as much as saying she cared for him a lot. In Demons nd Terra Prime is was very obvious they were a couple. It seemed to be like a lot of rules, meant to be broken.

It does add somethi g to a Fanfic finding difernt ways they can get around it.

SB

[putaro]

I think that even in Enterprise the fraternization rules never came up except for that one time when T'Pol was twitting Trip and Archer about needing to get their ashes hauled.

Superior/subordinate relationships are often frowned upon because there's a good chance of sexual harassment. This is true for most larger companies.

Starfleet is such a weird duck. It's always unclear whether they're a military organization or not. At the beginning of Season 1, the vibe is more like a research ship, like one of the ships that Scripps Institute of Oceanography operates, though I don't think Scripps has any ships with torpedo tubes. There's a lot more reason to keep discipline in a military organization than there is in a research organization.

[WarpGirl]

Actually, it isn't unclear at all. In ENT it flat out says that Starfleet is not considered military AT THAT TIME PERIOD. Later on, at the beginning of the Romulan War, and the founding of the Federation, Starfleet is officially absorbed as part of the Federation's Military. As are all the members space fleets.

[Kotik]

Starfleet is a para-military organization. They're more-or-less a space navy, as you can see by the existence of Captains, Xo's etc. So they probably took over the no-frat rules from the navy, too. Enterprise is the first boat capable of going on long-term missions. This is when the no-frat rules become impractical, because years of visits to Mrs. Fist, finger avenue 5 is somewhat undignified.

It makes sense to assume that during Enterprise's time at some point these rules get ditched. At Kirks time these rules didn't exist anymore, so he could get into the pants of every alien and non-alien babe that didn't run fast enough, without breaking any rules. To me it sounds somewhat plausible, that the rules existed until ENT, but as mission got longer these rules had to be ditched.

[putaro]

It makes sense to assume that during Enterprise's time at some point these rules get ditched.

The question, though, is WHERE in the series were these rules ever laid down. I found three references and none of them actually say that there are non-fraternization rules. The closest is when T'Pol says that officers aren't allow to fraternize with subordinates. Archer tells the school kids that dating is definitely allowed, it's just tough.

[WarpGirl]

Dear Putaro, I'd say don't give yourself a headache trying to figure it out. The fact of the matter is I think they just stopped caring at some point. I know all of the Treks had gaps, but with ENT they didn't even pretend to care about continuity.

[Kotik]

It makes sense to assume that during Enterprise's time at some point these rules get ditched.

The question, though, is WHERE in the series were these rules ever laid down. I found three references and none of them actually say that there are non-fraternization rules. The closest is when T'Pol says that officers aren't allow to fraternize with subordinates. Archer tells the school kids that dating is definitely allowed, it's just tough.

They haven't been explicitly laid down, but there are two scenes, which strongly suggest that the no-frat rules were still in place until at least the time of "Home".

1. T'Pol mentioning that there is a prohibition on fraternizing with subordinates.
2. Trip being worried about rumours about him and T'Pol (Rajiin)

That's what I've gone with in my "Words"-universe, where the rules are abandoned after Enterprise's return from the Expanse.

Now about that talk with the kids. There are several things to keep in mind:

• I doubt Archer was keen to explain the no-frat rules to school-children
• These kids are the potential next generation of space-goers, so saying "you can't do that" might scare them off
• I'm pretty sure that when saying "they can, but it's impractical", Archer had the enlisted ranks in mind, as officers do not share quarters with others. During my time in the army, women were still restricted to medical service (Only since the last 10 years women are allowed in combat troops), but they were part of the army and dating among enlisted ranks was technically forbidden, but not punished unless it interfered with duty performance, but as soon as one of the two dating persons had a sergeant or even officer rank, the punishment was immediate. Since I was a Hauptgefreiter (Lance Corporal) I don't know, how things were handled, if both were commissioned officers.

So, all in all, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on Archers school-talk, after all, for schoolchildren the word "dating" usually has not the same meaning, yet, as it has for adults.

[WarpGirl]

See, I thought of it like this... T'Pol's speech in Two Days, Two Nights was directed at Acher not Trip, therefore SF might have had a rule about Captains dating underlings.

Trip's concern about rumors, probably had nothing to do with regs and everything to do with not wanting to make T'Pol the subject of gossip, and possibly putting her reputation at risk.

T'Pol's response might indicate SF might have tried to put temporary frat regs in place because the Xindi Mission was an act of war.

[Kotik]

Two little things there, dear:

1. T'Pol's remark is from "Fallen Hero" and she includes all officers, not only the Captain.

2. Technically, the Xindi-mission is not an act of war, as we never saw a declaration of war. So in formal terms, the Xindi mission was an exploration mission with the goal of preventing a second attack on Earth, but without a formal declaration of war, there are no other rules than on the previous mission. I don't know, if the inclusion of combat troops (MACO) has any legal or formal ramifications, though.

[WarpGirl]

See my first post! Good night all, or should I say morning it's 4:40 am where I live. I'm going to attempt to get some but I don't like my chances.

[Kotik]

Ok, then lets dissect your first post, dear

Yes Sloppy WRITING! The truth is Starfleet never had frat rules like in most modern militaries on earth today. Kirk couls and did flirt with subordinates, although I doubt he ever crossed that line when not under the influence of aliens. Captains are usually vehemently discouraged from having relationships with underlings, but in Starfleet it isn't a court marshal offense say like in JAG or Stargate.

You are comparing apples to oranges. ENT shows a much earlier Starfleet than all other Trek series. NX-01 was an exploring vessel cum warship. Kirks ship and all others were technically generation ships, like the E² NX01, where there were families onboard. The earlier Starfleet was nearer to a military naval vessel without any families and most likely still existing no-frat rules.

Riker got involved with Ro Laren, (an ensign under his direct command) and he MARRIED a woman under his direct command! And there are dozens of other examples. My favorite being they were both senior to each other at various points.

As said above, Enterprise-D was a generational ship. As for your favourite pair. Voyager was in exactly the same position as Lorians ship. They were displaced with very low chances of getting back where they belong within their lifetime, so even if there had been no-frat rules, they'd be abandoned once it became clear that they probably wont see Earth ever again.

To tell the truth I find Starfleet's policy enlightened. For all the frat rules in the military, relationships happen, and a lot of nasty stuff also that happens that could probably be avoided if the military didn't have frat rules to begin with. That said I do agree with the basic principle of why they exist. TnT have a distinct advantage because T'Pol is vulcan and basically shut off those feelings during a crises.

No-frat rules make perfect sense. They exist for a reason. But in any organization, that has them, people get to see their families at least every few months or weeks. The only people spending extensive periods of time in space are the boomers and they have their families on the ship. NX-01 is the first para-military vessel to go into space for periods spanning a year or longer, so until then there was no reason to abandon no-frat rules, but there is every reason to abandon them for the NX-01 crew. To me that would be the most realistic variant.

And now I wish you pleasant dreams

[putaro]

Well, I'm curious because as far as I could tell the actual episodes never mention an actual prohibition other than T'Pol's comment about subordinates - but it seems to have taken pretty deep roots.

When Archer is talking with the kids, I think that needs to be taken at face value.

1) He talks about people sharing quarters and that making dating difficult. Now, if you want to define dating as going to movie night together than sharing quarters won't make that difficult. Actually, anyone who has ever lived in a college dorm should know that sharing quarters doesn't make sex that difficult. Though, Enterprise's cabins don't have doorknobs so I don't know where you'd put the coat hanger.

2) The writers put it in there. It would have been pretty easy to just say "No, dating's not allowed" for Archer as well.

When T'Pol is talking in Raijn, she's definitely saying there's no regs about senior officers having a relationship. I wouldn't say that's even a little ambiguous. If it was against regulations then it would be Lieutenant Reed's concern as well as all of the other officers.

TV shows are products of their times. When TOS was produced, sexual harassment wasn't even really a concept - or, at most it was just starting to get some traction. Certainly dating secretaries you worked with was pretty normal. The military was almost all male at that time so there wasn't a model there to follow.

As far as NX-01 being the first long mission ship, I don't think that can be at all assumed. It was the first FAST ship but we've got the boomers going on multi-year missions. Why wouldn't Starfleet be doing that? At warp 1, Alpha Centauri is a multi-year mission.

[Kotik]

I think this might warrant a more in-depth fact-finding:

Well, I'm curious because as far as I could tell the actual episodes never mention an actual prohibition other than T'Pol's comment about subordinates - but it seems to have taken pretty deep roots.

When Archer is talking with the kids, I think that needs to be taken at face value.

1) He talks about people sharing quarters and that making dating difficult. Now, if you want to define dating as going to movie night together than sharing quarters won't make that difficult. Actually, anyone who has ever lived in a college dorm should know that sharing quarters doesn't make sex that difficult. Though, Enterprise's cabins don't have doorknobs so I don't know where you'd put the coat hanger.

Here's the relevant passus from "Breaking the Ice":

ARCHER: Stay put, Commander. This is important. Start the recording. To the students of Ms Malvin's fourth grade class at the Worley Elementary School in Kenmare, County Kerry, Ireland. This is Captain Archer aboard the starship Enterprise. On behalf of the entire crew, I'd like to thank you for your transmission. We all got a real kick out of your drawings and letters. You asked a lot of interesting questions. I wish we had time to answer all of them, but if we did that, we wouldn't get much exploring done. So I've selected a few, and hopefully our answers will give you a better idea of what life is like out here. Liam Brennan asks 'what do you eat?' For the most part, the same things you eat at home. Our Chef can make anything from a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to turkey with all the trimmings. We have a hydroponic greenhouse onboard where we grow fruits and vegetables, and we can also replicate certain foods with our protein resequencer. Here's one from Geoff Miles. 'Is dating allowed on Enterprise?' Well, it's not discouraged, but there isn't a lot of privacy on a starship. Most of our crew share quarters with at least one other person, so it wouldn't exactly be practical. But if two crewmembers decide that they really like each other there are a lot of places they can go to look at the stars. Chloe O'Shannon wants to know, 'how do we talk to aliens?' I think I'll give that one to my Communications Officer, Ensign Hoshi Sato.

There are some things to consider:

1) He's talking to fourth-graders, meaning 10 or 11 year olds, so one can assume dating to be meant like meeting for an ice-cream or going to the movies. When Archer refers to dating, it's more meant in a sense of spending off-duty time together. In a later episode, he urges T'Pol to 'fraternize a little' and I doubt he meant 'see if you can get laid.' It is clear from the context (and the target audience) that we are not talking about personal relationships, but more likely about spending off-duty time, which might include private meetings.

fast-foward : Fallen Hero

T'POL: Starfleet forbids officers from fraternizing with subordinates. Unless you've been violating regulations
TUCKER: Those regulations don't apply to you. Have you been suffering?
T'POL: On Vulcan, we mate only once every seven years.

Here fraternization is clearly used in the context of shagging. And she makes it clear that there are standing regulations against it. It has to be noted however, that she only mentions it to apply to relations between officers and subordinates, which makes it possible for such rules not to apply to people of equal rank. This theory is confirmed by the following passus of "Home"

ERIKA: Why did we stop seeing each other?
ARCHER: Well, I was your superior officer. It wasn't appropriate.
ERIKA: You're not my superior anymore. (they kiss) I wonder if Starfleet would approve? The captains of the only two warp five ships?

2) The writers put it in there. It would have been pretty easy to just say "No, dating's not allowed" for Archer as well.

Again, we're talking about 4th-graders. Saying "Not allowed" would not make it probable that they'd develop ambitions to join Starfleet, as "dating prohibited" would mean "No fun" to a 10-year old.

When T'Pol is talking in Raijn, she's definitely saying there's no regs about senior officers having a relationship. I wouldn't say that's even a little ambiguous. If it was against regulations then it would be Lieutenant Reed's concern as well as all of the other officers.

Here's the scene from Rajiin

T'POL: I see no reason to be concerned with idle gossip.
TUCKER: It doesn't bother you?
T'POL: We're both senior officers. If we were pursuing a romantic relationship it wouldn't be Lieutenant Reed's concern, would it?
TUCKER: I suppose not.

T'Pol says that they're senior officers, meaning, she considers them of equal rank. This is however not even relevant as she's technically a civilian unless she's gotten a field-commission. By her pointing out the officer-think makes it clear that Trip fears to break regulations, else he'd not be concerned at all.

As far as NX-01 being the first long mission ship, I don't think that can be at all assumed. It was the first FAST ship but we've got the boomers going on multi-year missions. Why wouldn't Starfleet be doing that? At warp 1, Alpha Centauri is a multi-year mission.

Well, they do need the Vulcan star charts in "Broken Bow" and except for the boomers they have never heard of many other races other than Vulcans or Denobulans, so there could not have been many deep space missions, even with slower ships. Why Starfleet didn't go out with slower ships is anybodies guess, but if they had, they'd have ran into the Andorians or Tellarites before Enterprise shipped out.