Where did those pesky fraternization rules come from?

[Transwarp]

The regs exist for very good reasons. Intimate relationships between seniors and subordinates can be problematic because they can result in actual or perceived partiality. The 'perceived' part is the kicker: Even the most even-handed and scrupulously fair Commanders can't control what people think, and if even one subordinate thinks the Captain is showing favoritism, that can be a problem for discipline and morale. Given human nature, it's almost a given that subordinates will see evidence of partiality in such situations. The best way to prevent these problems is to forbid the relationships up front. Notice this is a problem in ANY human organization, not just the military (although there are fewer legal ramifications for the military to proscribe such behavior then civilian organizations).

The key element in these prohibitions is the supervisory authority between individuals, which means that the exact same relationship between the exact same people could be prohibited if they are in the same chain of command and permitted if they are not. US Army policy regarding fraternization is spelled out in excruciating detail in Army Regulation 600-20. It also lists other sorts of proscribed activities (not just romantic relationships) between personnel of different ranks, such as gambling or certain business relationships, but the reasons are the same: to prevent situations that can compromise the integrity of the chain of command, become exploitive or coercive, or be prejudicial to good order and discipline. Even with the best of intentions, it would be difficult to engage in such activities without problems. Violate the regs at your own risk!

[Silverbullet]

I am late this morning so I have skipped previous posts.

A couple points. Starfleet WAS military. Remember Hoshi says she was court martialed and given a bad conduct discharge Also in bound Archer he will not put in to his log that Trip fired ona fewlow Officer. T'Pol says that this should not end in a court Martial for Trip. That only hppens in a military organization. So Starfleet being military Enterprise was military too.

In the expanse T'Pol was a Civilian. She had no rank and never wore any insignia of Rank. She was not a member of Starfleet. As best I could figue out she was on board as a contractor Science Officer. In any case the rules would not apply to her. Even in the first two seasons she was a member of the Vulcan High Command. Again not a member of Starfleet or a Starfleet Officer. Vulcan rules would apply to her but not Starfleet. she was officialy on board as a liason and observer. Still an Officer of an alien military. Her status on Enterprise was always as a non Starfleet Officer and a Vulcan civilian. Never a member of Starfleet or a Starfleet Officer. It wasn't until season four did she become both a member of Starfleet and a Starfleet officer

SB

[WarpGirl]

Ok look it has been argued 1,000,000,000,000 times whether or not Starfleet is Military or not. Do we honestly have to hash this out another time???????? Seriously isn't it getting a tad old????? According to canon Starfleet does not become a part of the military until the Romulan War. Why does this argument keep coming back? I know it doesn't make sense but it's the way it is

[putaro]

I think SB makes a good point and it's also very relevant if you're trying to write something.

Also in bound Archer he will not put in to his log that Trip fired ona fewlow Officer. T'Pol says that this should not end in a court Martial for Trip.

A court martial only happens because the military has its own separate justice system. Police officers don't get court martialed - they get tried in civilian courts. Same for NASA personnel. The Coast Guard is a military service and they have courts martial.

If you want to write Starfleet as a non-military service you can dismiss those as poor writing in Enterprise, but you can't have personnel threatened with a court martial.

It is very strange that T'Pol could be aboard as a civilian in the expanse (which she obviously was, having resigned her Vulcan High Command position) AND be first officer. You don't put civilians in the chain of command. There is precedent for foreign military officers being in the chain of command.

There's still no strong evidence for a non-fraternization rule other than no superior/subordinate relationships.

[Cogito]

It is very strange that T'Pol could be aboard as a civilian in the expanse (which she obviously was, having resigned her Vulcan High Command position) AND be first officer. You don't put civilians in the chain of command. There is precedent for foreign military officers being in the chain of command.

There's still no strong evidence for a non-fraternization rule other than no superior/subordinate relationships.

Trying to rationalise this is probably a mistake because I don't suppose the writers were bothered about realism, but my rationalisation for the decon scene in broken bow is that T'Pol was trying to bluff her way into command while knowing she had no authority. I imagine that in a real-world organisation structured along military lines that would get you slapped down pretty darned quick. Trip was quite tentative about it though. Either he really wasn't sure, or perhaps he was just trying to avoid offending the gorgeous young female who was slathering gell over him.

[putaro]

Trying to rationalise this is probably a mistake because I don't suppose the writers were bothered about realism, but my rationalisation for the decon scene in broken bow is that T'Pol was trying to bluff her way into command while knowing she had no authority. I imagine that in a real-world organisation structured along military lines that would get you slapped down pretty darned quick. Trip was quite tentative about it though. Either he really wasn't sure, or perhaps he was just trying to avoid offending the gorgeous young female who was slathering gell over him.

In Broken Bow she's at least an officer in an allied military. The Vulcan/Earth alliance could have a military structure like NATO.

Or, you could argue that Starfleet isn't a military operation - in which case pulling rank is a little odd.

When they leave for the Expanse, though, she has resigned her commission with the Vulcan High Command and she's a civilian. There's no precedent for her being in the chain of command. Science officer, maybe. First officer? No way.

[WarpGirl]

But the problem is they did canonically say Starfleet isn't Military.

Pre-Federation Edit

United Earth Starfleet Flag (22nd century) Prior to 2161, Starfleet was the primary space defense and exploration organization of United Earth in the early-to-mid-22nd century. The primary authority of Starfleet was referred to as either Starfleet Command or UESPA (United Earth Space Probe Agency) under the jurisdiction of the Command Council, and was located in the city of San Francisco, Earth. (ENT: "Broken Bow", "Terra Prime")

Starfleet must have been founded sometime during the 2120s or 2130s, as Jonathan Archer gave some thought to join the Earth Cargo Service a few years before Starfleet was chartered. However, in 2136, Margaret Mullin turns down Archer's proposal of marriage, since she does not want to become a "Starfleet widow", which seems to indicate that Starfleet was operational by then. (ENT: "Horizon", "Twilight")

The primary purpose of Starfleet from its infancy was to "...seek out new life and new civilizations." and "...go boldly where no man has gone before." (This quote is attributed to Zefram Cochrane, the inventor of warp drive on Earth.) (ENT: "Broken Bow")

Some Starfleet personnel worked in conjunction with the United Earth Diplomatic Corps.

In 2153, following the Xindi attack on Earth and the numerous firefights that the Enterprise NX-01 had been involved in since its launch in 2151, it was determined that Earth's vessels would begin to carry detachments of United Earth's elite military unit, the MACOs, thus taking a step towards the unification of Starfleet and the military – and of the roles of defense and exploration. (ENT: "The Expanse")

One of the primary projects of Starfleet was to develop a viable and fast interstellar engine that would allow Earth to practically cross vast distances in reasonably short time. Despite some allegations of interference – or at least, a refusal of assistance – from the Vulcans, Earth had made notable progress in developing the warp five engine by the 2150s. (ENT: "Broken Bow")

Key officials overseeing the United Earth Starfleet included:
■ Admiral Maxwell Forrest
■ Admiral Daniel Leonard
■ Admiral Gardner
■ Commander Williams

Forrest, Leonard and Williams were named after William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley.

Article 14, Section 31, of the original U.E. Starfleet Charter made allowances for certain rules to be bent during times of extraordinary threat. This clause was the seed for the rogue organization known as Section 31. Lieutenant Malcolm Reed was recruited to Section 31 as a young ensign. (ENT: "Affliction", "Divergence", DS9: "Inquisition".)

In DS9: "Inquisition", Luther Sloan describes Section 31 as being part of the "original" Starfleet Charter, implying the existence of multiple Charters -- consistent with the speculative notion of the United Earth Starfleet eventually being re-chartered as the Federation Starfleet. In DS9: "Tacking Into the Wind", Julian Bashir said that Section 31 had managed to stay hidden for "over three hundred years". Therefore, the United Earth Starfleet should have been chartered before 2075. This however is contradicted by Captain Archer stating that he considered becoming a member of the Earth Cargo Authority "before Starfleet was chartered" in ENT: "Horizon".
The Latin phrase on the pre-Federation Starfleet seal is "

Ad Astra Per Aspera" (which translates roughly as "to the stars through hardships"). It is a modified version of the NASA motto "Per Aspera Ad Astra" ("through hardships to the stars"). It is also the current-day state motto of Kansas. It may also be related to the RAF motto "'Per Ardua Ad Astra'" ("through adversity to the stars").

Also in the episode The Expanse it makes a clear distinction between Starfleet Personel and Military Personel...

FORREST: His team should be arriving at eighteen hundred hours. I was surprised you asked for them. You think you'll be comfortable with the military on board?

ARCHER: I don't have a problem with non-Starfleet personnel. The General tell me these are the best he has. I'm going to need all the muscle I can get when we cross into the Expanse.

[putaro]

One might note that NASA doesn't have any admirals, at least not as a NASA position. They do have people on loan from the military, like Richard Truly, who had the rank of vice-admiral in the United States Navy, but his NASA position was Associate Administrator for Space Flight. Same goes for the other ranks. There are lots of military personnel on loan to NASA (most of the original and Apollo astronaut corps was on loan from the military) but NASA is not a military organization and doesn't have ranks.

That's why I say that Starfleet is an odd duck. It looks like it's military, quacks like it's military and walks like it's military. Again, you can't have courts martial without having that military justice system.

It's really a case of sloppy writing. Writers love the military structure because you can have people saluting and military captains get to yell and throw people in the brig and the dress uniforms are shiny and pretty. Oh, yah, and the guns. But, you can't depict such a military structure and then say "Oh, it's not military." Doesn't work, really. About the closest analog would be the US Coast Guard which is a branch of the military but isn't a bunch of war fighters (normally).

So, you have the writers saying one thing, in a very, very small voice "Starfleet isn't military," and then every other thing that is put on the screen shouts "Starfleet is a miltary operation."

[WarpGirl]

Like I said I KNOW it doesn't make sense. But that in canon Starfleet is not a military operation at this time. I didn't write it. I did a lot of research to make sure I had the facts right. I'm just presenting those facts. I don't like the fact that T'Pol got high and had a one-night-stand with Trip but I DO NOT deny it happened. Those are just the facts.

[Transwarp]

...in canon Starfleet is not a military operation at this time.

Sounds like a distinction without a difference. Try a little thought experiment here: Suppose canon said Starfleet WAS military, and everything else was exactly the same as we saw on-screen. What argument could anyone make that it WASN'T military? What evidence could we find to support it? I submit there is absolutely nothing that makes the case for Starfleet not being military.

So, if there is nothing you could point to and say, "See, Starfleet is a civilian organization," then I maintain it *is* military, regardless of what memory alpha says.

[Silverbullet]

Frankly I don't put any credence in what memory Alpha says. It is not definitive (sp).

In ENT there were two instances of a court marital being mentioned and one instance of a person saying the result of her court martial was a bad conduct discharge. That WG is military.

I remeber reading that Rodenbury said he patterned Star fleet on the U.S. Navy which means he meant it to be military.

In every series you have a command strcuture a chain of command. Captains, commanders Lt commanders, etc. all military ranks.

I beilve that Kirk was court martialed once. Maybe twice. Picard was threatebed wit court martial. That is all military. I don't care what memory alpha says.

In season 1 and 2 T'Pol ws an officer in the Vuclan High Command. She was not a member of Star fleet or a Star fleet Officer. There is no way she could assume command on Enterpriese based on her Vulcan Rank. Only the next higest ranking Star Fleet Officer could step in to that position. Same thing that the Doctor (even if he was Human would never have command responsibilities.) Tain't done.

Problem is that there were no attempt to allow a little realism wander in to Ent on occasion.

SB

[putaro]

One explanation for Starfleet's sheer half-assedness (aside from lousy writing) would be if Earth truly did demilitarize and disbanded all of the different national militaries, say around 2110 (I'm just picking dates out of the air here so if you like a different date, that's fine). Then, we have UE Space Probe Agency (Space Probe Agency?? Oy!) being created as a NASA type organization and morphing into Starfleet as it becomes obvious that there is a defense need.

That would mean that all of the institutional knowledge and attitudes had been lost. You'd have the old manuals and regulations for reference and a few of the old personnel but a lot of things wouldn't be well known anymore. Things like the chain of command, for example.

I think there's a bunch of neat stories there with the UESPA changing into Starfleet and the clash of cultures as Starfleet becomes more military.

It doesn't explain how Malcolm's father was in the Royal Navy unless it was disbanded when he was a midshipman.

[WarpGirl]

Sounds like a distinction without a difference. Try a little thought experiment here: Suppose canon said Starfleet WAS military, and everything else was exactly the same as we saw on-screen. What argument could anyone make that it WASN'T military? What evidence could we find to support it? I submit there is absolutely nothing that makes the case for Starfleet not being military.

So, if there is nothing you could point to and say, "See, Starfleet is a civilian organization," then I maintain it *is* military, regardless of what memory alpha says.

Okay I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If there was an episode that directly stated that Starfleet was the military nobody could argue with it. Canon would make that a fact. Whether you like Memory-Alpha or not, in the episode The Expanse Admiral Forrest and Archer make it plain Starfleet is not military.

And for the record SB I did not get that quote from memory-alpha I got it from here...http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/52.htm you happen to like that site A LOT. So I provided a multiple credible sources to back up the facts.

[putaro]

What Transwarp was trying to say is that, given what was depicted on the screen, for all practical purposes, Starfleet looked and acted like a military organization.

And SB is saying that they never, ever, on the screen, say "Starfleet is a civilian organization." The closest is when Forrest (wearing an admiral's uniform, how's that for irony) asks Archer if he wants the military on board. He could be misspeaking or abbreviating (MACO stands for Military blah-de-blah).

Looking at our current world, Japan might be a good example. The Japanese "Self Defense Force" is one of the larger and more sophisticated militaries around. They've got guns, ships, tanks, submarines, fighter jets, bombers, tankers, bases all over Japan, generals, admirals, buzz cuts, gold braid and just about everything you can think about that would define an organization as military.

However, officially, Japan does not have a military. All of the personnel are technically classified as being civilian. Article 9 of Japan's constitution (in English) says:

ARTICLE 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes. (2) To accomplish the aim of the preceding paragraph, land, sea, and air forces, as well as other war potential, will never be maintained. The right of belligerency of the state will not be recognized.

Now, what is the effective difference between the SDF and the US Department of Defense?

I think that, if anything, is the distinction that Starfleet would be working under - officially not "military" but the reality is that they are. Much like the "pacifist" Vulcans with all those shiny battle cruisers and black clad commandos.

One of the key distinction for the SDF, though, is that the SDF does not have its own justice system. So, if you're in the SDF you can't get court martialed - you'd stand trial like any other civilian.

[Kotik]

WG: You seem to overlook a tiny detail: There's the military and a military organisation. When someone refers to "the military", we think "the army". But there are more military organisations, like as previously mentioned, the coast guard, which technically is also part of the army, but not usually perceived as such.

So the particular question in "The Expanse" could also have been: "Are you comfortable with the army onboard."

While it is clear that Starfleet is in no way connected to the army, all facts show that it is an organisation with military structure, rules and practices, hence it is a military organisation, but not the military