Just how "experienced" was T'Pol?

[Silverbullet]

The way she was written she was cold, merciless and pitiless. She savaged him the monrning after. in e2 she ignored her countrparts love and marriage claiming that what happened to them would not necessairly happen to her and her Trip. She said it was a mistake to start an exploration with Trip because he was incapable of having a sexual relationship without forming an emotional one. Later in the Episode where she was almost killed because of that illegal experiemment, Daedelus, she coldly tells Trip she is gooing to study her religion and she will have no time for him. She jerks him around relentlesly. Pushiing him away and p ulling him back without explanation. When she does explose herself in bound by kissing him publicly he finaly gets his spine back and pushes her away. But in the long run the writers and TPTB left a very cold person in T'Pol.

WG re a one night stand. There is nothing between the people involved but Sex. Nothing given and nothing taken. Pleasure for itself. T'Pol seduced Trip not for sexual pleasure she seduced him out of love for him and feat thar another woman would claim him. So she staked her claim first. Whatever that is not a one night stand. Even if they never did it again the two would remember that night as something special they would relive and remember for the rest of their lives. A one night stand is forgotten as soon as the door closes behind the other person.

I wish the series had been written as well as much of the Fanfic has been. I think it would have lasted seven season or more.

I still contend that t'Pol never had sexual intercourse with a male of any species until Trip. That she was a Virgin that night. Again another reason she would not deny him the next morning. It is said one never forgets the person they had their first sexual experience with. Probably true. Perhpas not with Vulcns. Who knows

I love the character T'Pol and was heartbroken at the morning after scene and what was done to the character afterwards. It was stupid of TPTB.

SB

[marchale]

The way she was written she was cold, merciless and pitiless. She savaged him the monrning after. in e2 she ignored her countrparts love and marriage claiming that what happened to them would not necessairly happen to her and her Trip. She said it was a mistake to start an exploration with Trip because he was incapable of having a sexual relationship without forming an emotional one. Later in the Episode where she was almost killed because of that illegal experiemment, Daedelus, she coldly tells Trip she is gooing to study her religion and she will have no time for him. She jerks him around relentlesly. Pushiing him away and p ulling him back without explanation. When she does explose herself in bound by kissing him publicly he finaly gets his spine back and pushes her away. But in the long run the writers and TPTB left a very cold person in T'Pol.

WG re a one night stand. There is nothing between the people involved but Sex. Nothing given and nothing taken. Pleasure for itself. T'Pol seduced Trip not for sexual pleasure she seduced him out of love for him and feat thar another woman would claim him. So she staked her claim first. Whatever that is not a one night stand. Even if they never did it again the two would remember that night as something special they would relive and remember for the rest of their lives. A one night stand is forgotten as soon as the door closes behind the other person.

I wish the series had been written as well as much of the Fanfic has been. I think it would have lasted seven season or more.

I still contend that t'Pol never had sexual intercourse with a male of any species until Trip. That she was a Virgin that night. Again another reason she would not deny him the next morning. It is said one never forgets the person they had their first sexual experience with. Probably true. Perhpas not with Vulcns. Who knows

I love the character T'Pol and was heartbroken at the morning after scene and what was done to the character afterwards. It was stupid of TPTB.

SB

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head of why I hate TPTB for not handling their relationship the way I wish they had, but while Trip had my full sympathy for the emotional roller coaster ride T'Pol put him through with her Vulcanism and it was heartbreaking for me to watch him being hurt the morning after, going over to the Columbia, etc, etc, etc - I guess I take a softer approach in my feelings towards T'Pol's emotional immaturity and thoughtless behavior. I'm probably a little biased in my thinking here having studied logic too and needing to learn how to detatch yourself emotionally from back when I was a philosophy student in college. That isn't an easy thing to do by the way, in this one class my assignment was to defend the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki against a classroom of very bright students trying to rip that argument to shreds and that was emotionally challenging to do, especially since I hated the position I was required to defend and afterwards had to run to the bathroom to throw up. I don't know, maybe everyone who studied philosophy had to become a little Vulcan-like in order to keep their sanity intact when the scariest thoughts in the world are thrown at you and tears and fears were not allowed in arguments. So in a stupid-ass kind of way, I can kind of sympathise with what she had to deal with in trying to supress her emotions because for years in school they were trying to beat the feelings out of my thinking too. Anyway, while I often didn't like the way she behaved, I know where it was coming from inside of her; and it wasn't from a mean or heartless place - I look at T'Pol as being more "emotionally retarded" in a way somewhat like a person who is mentally retarded lacks a higher IQ. It wasn't done with malice if she was cold, she just didn't know how to be any other way; kinda like being a stranger in a foreign country where you can't speak the language, you try to figure out as much as you can about things, but much is going over your head that you just can't comprehend. I think she tried her best to wrestle with her feelings, but that must've been hell for her growing up in a world where feelings were something you try your best to supress. Anyway, I felt kinda sorry for her, being an emotional "baby" as it were and not being able to grasp very well what she had to deal with there. I think she really loved him, but just couldn't do a very good job of dealing with it properly like a human understands.
Okay, thats just my two cents worth on this subject.

[Silverbullet]

One of the things that threw many people was T'Pol's appearance. She looked about between 25 and 30. Her age actually was 65 in Harbinger. She was mature she had experience of a kind dealing with other species. She hunted down fugitives. She was not a child.

Sexualy she is immature because she is inexperienced in it. As I have stated I believe she had never had Sexual intercourse with a male of any species until she seduced Trip.

Her seduction was not really a seduction she drops her Robe and is naked underneith it. She then kisses him passionately. A true seduction would be a candle light dinner, music, talk and Romance leading up to Sex. Her way was direcct to the chase. I suppose after Trip got over the intial surprise he took control (as human males will do) of the Sex. She could then allow him to lead the way that she had no idea of how to do it. That shows her inexperience. If she was a tramp or a slut it would have been natural to simply drop her Robe and kiss him passionately. She is neither. She is experienced in life but not in what she foound herself in. Defending what she believed was hers. She may have denied it if asked by Trip or even Cole but she did view Trip as hers. As someone pointed out she was jealous of every female Trip came in to contact with while on the Enterprise. As I once noted she could only show her affection for him through anger and jealousy.

I fault the writers and TPTB for forgetting details like her true age and the fact that she had experience in many areas of life. They just chose to briefly focus on her and Trip.

SB

[marchale]

One of the things that threw many people was T'Pol's appearance. She looked about between 25 and 30. Her age actually was 65 in Harbinger. She was mature she had experience of a kind dealing with other species. She hunted down fugitives. She was not a child.

Sexualy she is immature because she is inexperienced in it. As I have stated I believe she had never had Sexual intercourse with a male of any species until she seduced Trip.

Her seduction was not really a seduction she drops her Robe and is naked underneith it. She then kisses him passionately. A true seduction would be a candle light dinner, music, talk and Romance leading up to Sex. Her way was direcct to the chase. I suppose after Trip got over the intial surprise he took control (as human males will do) of the Sex. She could then allow him to lead the way that she had no idea of how to do it. That shows her inexperience. If she was a tramp or a slut it would have been natural to simply drop her Robe and kiss him passionately. She is neither. She is experienced in life but not in what she foound herself in. Defending what she believed was hers. She may have denied it if asked by Trip or even Cole but she did view Trip as hers. As someone pointed out she was jealous of every female Trip came in to contact with while on the Enterprise. As I once noted she could only show her affection for him through anger and jealousy.

I fault the writers and TPTB for forgetting details like her true age and the fact that she had experience in many areas of life. They just chose to briefly focus on her and Trip.

SB

Well, I agree with you there about TPTB. And I think I was the one who mentioned about her jealousy of every other woman he ran into (in defense of my theory that I think they fell in love very early on in the show, whether they realized it or not at the time, though I suspect they each knew how the other felt). Yeah, they should've fleshed out the characters better, and not kill the goose that laid the golden egg in terms of really cultivating their relationship instead of the juvenial mockery they made of it. But at least thank God there's fanfic out there to correct the mistakes and omissions on the show. And while I hated the skeleton of the romance on the show - maybe it can serve as a reminder for fanfic writers on what not to do. (just between you and me, I think fanfic is so far superior to the show. I mean, I like looking at Trip on the screen and it's fairly good - if somewhat irriitating to watch at times, but the real "heart and soul" of TnT is what fanfic writers (and artists) who love the characters can do with them. At least TPTB has no control over what really matters the most there (which is what we as fans can do here).

[Asso]

Warms my heart to know that there is someone who thinks just like me.

[Silverbullet]

Marc, have you read many stories of members of this board? some good stuff here. Asso writes some great poetry. Then he is Italian and they are poets at heart.

Some of them have moved to other places but their stories are in the Archiev (sp)

Cogito's first story is on the main page and really great one to start his writing career with.

Since this is a TnT site our stories are confined to them. wich still leaves a lot of lattitude for writers.

Recommendations? Thorn and the Rose by Dinah. That was one of the first Fanfics I read and it still stands out in my mind. You will have to read and make your own list.

BTW, to beat my own drum "Oh Mr. Tucker" seems to be one that has been read the most.

SB

[marchale]

Marc, have you read many stories of members of this board? some good stuff here. Asso writes some great poetry. Then he is Italian and they are poets at heart.

Some of them have moved to other places but their stories are in the Archiev (sp)

Cogito's first story is on the main page and really great one to start his writing career with.

Since this is a TnT site our stories are confined to them. wich still leaves a lot of lattitude for writers.

Recommendations? Thorn and the Rose by Dinah. That was one of the first Fanfics I read and it still stands out in my mind. You will have to read and make your own list.

BTW, to beat my own drum "Oh Mr. Tucker" seems to be one that has been read the most.

SB

No sadly my old computer died and I was offline while I was saving up to get a new one, so I've just gotten back online here fairly recently - and I haven't forgotten that I owe you and Cogito some sexy T'Pol fakes I promised you guys fairly recently. But as soon as I get them done, I am chomping at the bit to start reading fanfic - it feels like a real tease to me that I haven't gotten to it yet, I just remember how I used to enjoy Voyager fanfic years ago - so I Really am looking forward to reading Enterprise fanfic. (no offense against Voyager, but I much prefer Enterprise). Anyway, I should get offline here and do those fakes of T'Pol for you guys so I can get my schedule free to start reading fanfic. (Sorry, I've been having so much fun posting here lately, I guess time tended to get away from me here). Anyway, I'm going offline till I get them done so I'll talk to you guys later. Bye!

[Transwarp]

Oh look: Another interesting thread takes off then burns out before I realize it's even there!

A lot of ground was covered, so where to begin?

First, regarding the formation of a Vulcan mating bond: I am FIRMLY in the camp that it takes more than an act of sex (no matter how many times the act is performed) to create such a bond. I agree with those of you (and you know who you are) who define the word 'mate' in that T'Pol quote (too far down the thread for me to see right now) in its relational sense, not in any physical or sexual sense. I believe that the formation of a mating bond requires the two parties to actually care deeply for each other. I know most fans seem to believe that TnT's bond formed on that single night in 'Harbinger', but I'm not one of them.

I also tend to agree with WG's take on the 'Harbinger' morning-after scene. I would not expect T'Pol to pick up on the subtle nuances of Trip's reaction to her rejection, despite her time living among humans. As a Vulcan, she'd be ill-equipped for that. Up to that point, everything she was taught about humans leads her to believe their interests are fleeting and their relationships (even with other humans) are transitory. She could probably quote statistics about human divorce rates and the incidence of infidelity. Who could blame her for trying to take a step back? Trip was also out of his league; rather than taking a more Vulcan-appropriate straight-forward approach ("Knock off the shit, T'Pol. Last night was more than an exploration of human sexuality and we both know it."), he reacted as if she were human, not realizing all the possible ways she could (and did) misinterpret his words and actions.

As for when Trip first realized he loved T'Pol, I believe it was well before the episode 'Home', despite what he told T'Les. (When he said he didn't realize he loved her until she said she was marrying Kos, I think he was just making an excuse for his inaction in actively pursuing their relationship prior to that point.) He certainly never did or said anything in a direct (Vulcan-appropriate) manner to T'Pol. And neither did T'Pol--there is plenty of blame to go around for the dysfunctional relationship. (Yes, yes, I know. Ultimately blame for the whole sorry mess goes back to TPTB, who couldn't seem to make up their minds or write any kind of adult relationship into the script.)

I'm sure I'm overlooking other points I'd like to comment on, but it's a long thread and I've already forgotten them. That's what I get for coming late to the party!

my assignment was to defend the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki against a classroom of very bright students

Interestingly enough, there was a lengthy discussion about that very topic in one of the threads on this web site. I'd point you to it, but I've long since forgotten which thread it was.

[Silverbullet]

Transarp, what do you think of my point that T'Pol looked between 25-30 but her age in Harbinger was 65. She was experienced in many things having been in the security directorate and in the Science on too. However, her experiences with Humans was limited to her time on enterprise, in California and from reading. California and Enterprise itself taught her some things but Human sexuality ws not one of them. I still believe she ws a Virgin when she and trip had Sex. That how she "Seduced" him was awkward as she had nothing to go on. It was what a Tramp ort slut might do. she simply did not know how to seduce a human male so she went right for it. Trip probablly did recover from his surpise and took over from there. Why she bckpeddled the next morning is a mystery to me. She intiated the actions of hte night before. she had what she bellieved were valid reasons for doing so. Those reasons should have still held the morning after.

SB

[Transwarp]

T'Pol looked between 25-30 but her age in Harbinger was 65

SB, I think you are correct that this would have had a HUGE impact on the way humans regarded her and dealt with her. They would assume (based on her youthful looks) that she had much less life experience than she actually did. This would cause humans to put less weight on her opinions than they deserved. She would realize they were de-valuing her judgments, but would not have a clue why. And if she INSISTED that they pay attention to the insights of her hard-won experience, she would appear to them as some young punk kid demanding the respect she hadn't yet earned. A tough position for a Vulcan, I'd say. Fortunately, she had the gumption to stick it out, and the Enterprise crew eventually came to value her opinions and respect her experience.

I also agree with you that her experience with humans was extremely limited prior to her posting on Enterprise, and most of what she 'knew' about humans consisted entirely of scientific studies, statistics, and the 'conventional wisdom' imparted by the Vulcan High Command. I can see her attending mandatory training sessions before being sent to Earth, with titles like "How to deal with the irrational behavior of the illogical and intransigent inhabitants of Earth", or "How to respond to sexual overtures from a Human". How about, "What to expect if you MUST leave the Embassy grounds." I think Vulcan opinions of humans at that time were spectacularly unflattering and uninformed.

Regarding whether T'Pol was a virgin prior to Harbinger: I have no strong opinions on this one way or the other, and a strong case can be made either way. I have read and enjoyed stories with both scenarios. In MY universe, I've decided she was a virgin, mainly because of her childhood betrothal. She had a husband waiting in the wings; she didn't NEED to engage in sex with anyone else, and recreational sex is not something I see Vulcans embracing. Some writers postulate that female pon farr would have driven her to sex beforehand, while other writers postulate that only males experience pon farr. Canon is less than explicit on the topic. My own theory is that the pon farr cycle in females is triggered by the formation of a mating bond so while female Vulcans *do* go through pon farr, T'Pol would not have done so before meeting Trip. It's not canon, but neither does it violate canon.

And finally, the mystery of the morning-after scene. Why did she back-pedal? [The real reason? Thoughtless writing!] I believe once the passion subsided, her head over-ruled her heart. She began to remember all those things the High Command had taught her about how the over-sexed humans could not control their impulses, how they could not maintain stable relationships, how illogical and emotional they were. She was thinking "omigawd omigawd omigawd what have I done?" (or the Vulcan equivalent). The morning-after talk was her desperate attempt to re-assert her Vulcan identity with as much dignity as she could muster. And Trip, bless his heart, did nothing to refute her beliefs. T'Pol lived all her life in a society where there is only one facial expression. (You know the one; it's the I'm-really-really-constipated-right-now look.) There is no way she's equipped to interpret the expression on Trip's face. (You know, that you-just-kicked-me-in-the-gonads look.) With a little more honesty, either one of them could have prevented the following disaster.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[Asso]

Perfect.
I would add only two other things (small).
Fear and shame: What the hell should T'Pol do of her life? Do you realize? In bed with a male human! She! A proud Vulcan female!
And a jealous Vulcan female, in addition! Jealousy! On her part! She would never admit it, perhaps, but she knows within herself. And that she feels fear, well ... she had to admit it, with Phlox.

I could cite a bunch of other things suited to explain her fear and her shame, which almost forced her to reject Trip, after that night (and Trip, honestly, does not seem very keen, although in my 'Depths' I think I was able to prove otherwise - Thank God, we can improve what we saw on the screen, even without stray too dramatically from the canon.)

But there is one thing above the others in my opinion: T'Pol is not stupid, far from it. And she knows that Trip is not stupid, far from it. So what? Would it be possible not to reveal to Trip (or would it be possible that he did not notice) that she is an addict? And for her, for what she is - this is really shameful.
And in any case, since she knows what is right and what is not (in principle, of course - like everyone else), she is well aware that even if she doesn't say anything and even if Trip would not notice .. . Well, hiding something from the person you share a deep and intimate reaction with, is something truly despicable.

So, guys? There is not enough to explain the idiotic behavior of T'Pol, the next morning? I think so.
In all honesty, I do not think there is need to think very hard about all the Vulcan education of T'Pol, about her distance from the behavior of Humans, to find some logical explanation for her behavior.
Just think in human terms.

Ma .. well ... Perhaps you know what I think - inside me - of the so-called logic of Vulcans (and of how they are able to lie very well to others and to themselves).

Excuse me, please.

[putaro]

When it comes to the morning-after scene in Harbinger, what WOULD have been in character for her?

a) Trip, last night was amazing and I think I am falling in love with you.

BZZZT! I don't think so.

b) Last night was agreeable, I would like to repeat it.

Possible

c) Thank you for helping me explore Human sexuality, it's something I've been meaning to do since I left the High Command.

A lousy line, but a pretty obvious lie. A Vulcan isn't going to talk about the emotional aspects of what went on. Not going to happen.

I thought Trip was the one who was out of character. After knowing her that long and that well, I would have expected him to reply with something like "Well, there's a lot more that we can explore!"

T'Pol afterwards keep getting upset at Trip because he has obviously developed an emotional attachment. So, would the textbook ideal (that is what Vulcans would SAY rather than what they would DO) Vulcan relationship be emotionless?

[Asso]

Mh .... I imagine that we can discuss how long we want, trying to justify the unjustifiable.
The fact is that the authors (demonstrating an excellent spirit of potato) have thought that this could be a funny scene.
Well ... I think you all know by now that Italian way of saying, the one about the perennial pregnancy state of the mothers of not too much intelligent people.

[Distracted]

Asso, you've used the "mothers of idiots are always pregnant" line often enough for me to have some inkling about what it means, but could you please explain "spirit of potato"? That one's a total head scratcher for me.

[putaro]

... but could you please explain "spirit of potato"? That one's a total head scratcher for me.

Sounds like vodka to me. Which reminds me, I still have some wine left...