Just how "experienced" was T'Pol?

[WarpGirl]

You're just worried about words.

Yes I am. To me words are pretty darn important. And labeling a relationship is important because then you know what both parites expect from each other. TnT never ever got that. They never quite knew who wanted what. And they're both guilty!

Now, to bring it back to the original topic - in Season 1, T'Pol likes to play the "older and wiser" Vulcan, and talked about her experience with this and that. In a number of cases she acts quite worldly even. By Season 3 she's acting pretty naive in many ways.

Now, bad writing aside, my opinion is that she was putting up a front originally. This doesn't jibe very well with the "Vulcans don't lie" bit, but we've seen that's not very true.

Here's what I think. I think a Vulcan's concept of what is a lie and what is the truth is radically different than a human's. Vulcans have no concept of "lying by omission." If they tell the "truth" while leaving out details to them it is still the truth.

To sum it up Obi-Wan Kenobi put it brilliantly. "What I told you was true from a certain point of view" examples...

"Vulcans do not experience anger..." Meaning: We don't yell, scream, and throw punches, like you humans do.

"Vulcans do not experience fear..." Meaning: We don't freeze up, start shaking, or run away, like you humans do.

"Vulcans do not lie..." Meaning: We don't tell you we'll work 8 hours, then work 4 and tell you we worked 8, like you humans do.

We humans believe in lying by omission. Vulcans don't. To them it's irrelevant data.

[Silverbullet]

WG, there is a huge difference between a one night stand and a mating.

A one night stahd can be so casual that the two people never know one anothers name when she or he leaves in the morning. It is pure SEX. Talk is limited and little information is exchanged. There is no desire for anything more than a night of Sex.

A mating there is talk, they know each other they have a desire for more than just Sex. They want to be together for more than Sex.but Sex is the way to open the door to becoming mates. first physical and later emotional. Binding one annother together is what T'Pol was doing in Harbinger. She seduced him she wanted him for herself. She did not wnat to share him with anyone.She wanted him for her mate. She opened the door to that by dropping her Robe. Since she was naked underneath the Robe she had a purpose in doing it. Remember in all the other NP she wore pajamas (ONe Red and One Green long legged PJ with a top that pulled down over her Breasts. Not in Harbinger. She changed the rules. She knew what she was dong and what her motive for doing it was. He was her chosen mate. A life long mate. It was not a casual Sex one night stand.

Believe me I know the difference.

I have believed for a long time if it had been properly written and we had been shown the whole episode as the mating scene in Harbinger Trip would have revealed his love for T'POl. I still think it takes two to make a mating. so Trip and T'Pol were in Love the night of Harbinger we just wren't shown that thanks to Sussman.

SB

[WarpGirl]

I hate to say this I really do but none of what you're talking about happened during Harbinger otherwise the morning after would never have happened. I'm sorry, but it was a one night stand. Maybe the people involved cared about each other deeply but it doesn't change the outcome.

They had sex, T'Pol said "thanks, but we're not in a relationship. Let's be friends."

That is not the action of a woman who has chosen her mate!

And if Trip had proclaimed his love, or even had a clue she wanted a relationship based on that night he would have fought her on it. He didn't!

Now if you think Harbinger is a real relationship, I can't say anything else. But quite frankly, it's no wonder the divorce rate is so high!

[Asso]

That is not the action of a woman who has chosen her mate!

She hasn't chosen her mate. As it happens in real life, she has found herself with a mate in her hands.

Well, excuse me, but I think it's enough now, please.
It seems to me that someway this is a strange way to deny the obvious.
From time immemorial we are continuing to repeat the same things, so - at least for me - this is the last time.

But, to say that she and Trip were a couple, was it necessary that T'Pol shouted it all around? Must she make it that there must be a thundering rolling of drum?
Must she write it in large letters on her travel documents?
Must she knock on every door in every room, saying to the astonished occupant: you know, just wanted you to know. Trip and I are a couple.
Frankly, I'm even stunned that we should split hairs on a matter so clear and obvious.

And probably a little more honesty and sincerity would make the divorces less frequent.

[Cogito]

Now if you think Harbinger is a real relationship, I can't say anything else. But quite frankly, it's no wonder the divorce rate is so high!

Well, I do think Harbinger was the start of a serious relationship. Or rather, the start of sexual activity within a relationship that was already pretty serious.

And it may be that it wasn't obvious from the screenplay that this was the case. And it may even be that there are some things in the screenplay that suggests this was NOT the case. But what we saw in the screenplay was just the deranged rambling of writers and directors who had no intention of showing mature adults developing in any meaningful way, and just wanted to keep the audience mildly titivated in between advert breaks. If you believe that every image and every word is literally and absolutely true then you have to also believe that what we saw in *the_abomination* was literally and absolutely true. And if you believe that, then you would also have to conclude that the people we have been watching for those four years are not mature well-balanced adults.

I take the whole thing with a pinch of salt, and if that means I have to gloss over details that are inconvenient to my particular world view, then they are glossed over. For instance, *the_abomination* never happened.

And isn't it strange how a four letter word starting with 'T' and ending with 'V' gets turned into *the_abomination*?

[WarpGirl]

I am going to bite myself for saying this... I totally will draw blood but right now I'm too confused to let this go...

There are two questions I need answered:

1. When did I say T'Pol or Trip need to define or lable their relationship to other people?

I believe what I said was that they did not define, their relationship to each other. And unless I'm completely separated from the human race, couples usually define what they are to each other.

2. Did T'Pol drop Trip like a hot potatoe after Harbinger or not, where did I miss the part where they had heartfelt talks and declared their love for each other, after or during the time they were in bed?

Because in the episode I saw she said "Thanks, that's not happening again." So if all that lovey dovey stuff happened... OMG. It's just not possible.

[Asso]

Now if you think Harbinger is a real relationship, I can't say anything else. But quite frankly, it's no wonder the divorce rate is so high!

Well, I do think Harbinger was the start of a serious relationship. Or rather, the start of sexual activity within a relationship that was already pretty serious.

And it may be that it wasn't obvious from the screenplay that this was the case. And it may even be that there are some things in the screenplay that suggests this was NOT the case. But what we saw in the screenplay was just the deranged rambling of writers and directors who had no intention of showing mature adults developing in any meaningful way, and just wanted to keep the audience mildly titivated in between advert breaks. If you believe that every image and every word is literally and absolutely true then you have to also believe that what we saw in *the_abomination* was literally and absolutely true. And if you believe that, then you would also have to conclude that the people we have been watching for those four years are not mature well-balanced adults.

I take the whole thing with a pinch of salt, and if that means I have to gloss over details that are inconvenient to my particular world view, then they are glossed over. For instance, *the_abomination* never happened.

And isn't it strange how a four letter word starting with 'T' and ending with 'V' gets turned into *the_abomination*?

I wanted to mention this in full, not only because it perfectly reflects my thoughts, but also because it's damn well told!

[Silverbullet]

WG, the problem is that we DIDN'T see what went on when they got in to bed. We were cheated so that leaves us with our own beliefs.

One thing. Have you ever been in Bed with a man after Sex? Do you know the difference betwen what is said in a one night stand and in a relataionship or the start of one. What is said if two people love one another. In that afterglow much is said that is true. Unfortunately, it also can be denied the next morning if one or the other is a damned fool.

I have know a man who declared his eternal love to a woman got her in bed and then the next morning said she was a tramp for going to bed with him because they weren't married. He wa total jerk. She thought he would welcome her in the morning as a lover would. She was crushed. she had no idea what she had done. He woulnd't even talk to her.

I have seen women hand a man his head on a platter the next morning after a night of intimate lovemaking and talk. What had been said the night before was forgotten by the woman. The man was stunned he couldn't beieve it. Things like that do happen.

I believe that Trip and T'Pol did talk, that they said things, declared things. That T'Pol had an attack of guilt the next morning and gutted Trip. He paid the price of her confusion. He really thought that she meant what was said the night before. It was on his face when he sat down. She kept her face covered with that cup. I am adament that she chose Trip as her Mate to ward off other females like Cole or any other potential rival by binding Trip to her even if he was not aware of it.

She did want to take him home to get mothers approval or at least let the two of them meet. Her chosen mate and her mother. That Koss carp was another of Sussmans little capers. He was determined to keep them apart. Maany Coto should have stepped on him and took control. When Coto wrote something he had Sussman breathing down his neck so he wrote the same junk of keep them apart.

Only in Demons and Terra Prime were they a couple.

SB

SB

[WarpGirl]

Cogito...

If you believe that every image and every word is literally and absolutely true then you have to also believe that what we saw in *the_abomination* was literally and absolutely true. And if you believe that, then you would also have to conclude that the people we have been watching for those four years are not mature well-balanced adults.

Truthfully, that's exactly what I believe. But what touches my heart about these two is the potential they have both as individual characters, and as a pairing.

Look if I didn't love and care about them I wouldn't work my tail off typing 35 pages a chapter trying to give them and their relationship the chance it deserved on TV. I work pretty dang hard for them, so I don't think my opinions are unfair or in any way disrespects them at all. I don't even think my opinions on ENT as a show, are disrespectful or unfair. I LOVE ST I have since I was born. I take writing fic very seriously. So I do my best to fix what I believe was broken, whether TnT or other things.

PS. SB I refuse to fight about this.

[Cogito]

Truthfully, that's exactly what I believe.

You're choosing a difficult path. When you look at the screenplay for each episode, all you're seeing is what the writers needed for that week's adventure to happen. The characters are wildly inconsistent from week to week and even within an episode. For forty minutes of light entertainment, that doesn't matter. But if you're trying to map all those details onto realistic personalities and work out what must have been going on in their heads for all that to happen, you will end up in a very difficult situation. Probably you would have to conclude that the leading characters were suffering from multiple personality disorders because no single sane person would have done all those different things we saw them do across those four seasons.

Like you, I use the stories we have been shown as an inspiration to conjure up a world with consistent characters in realistic situations developing meaningful relationships with each other. This is certainly what you have shown in your stories so far, and I applaud you for it. But the more closely you try to fit that imaginary world to the screenplay, the more illogical details and inconsistencies you have to incorporate. For me, there quickly comes a point where I say: that detail doesn't make sense; it doesn't make sense for "my" character to act like that; I choose to ignore it.

[Silverbullet]

WG, so who is fighting? Not me..

Cogito, I am like you. In my stories I try to make Trip and T'Pol closer to what I would have liked to have seen on the screen. I believe that one of TPTB said that the viewers should fill in what happens off screen for themselves. But as you say, it is too wildly insonsistant. Even taking in to account that T'Pol is Vulcan she is made too human at times for the writers benefit. That leads to inconsistencies. T'Pol is preented as cooly logical yet she can come apart at the seams easily. She tries TD knowing the harm it can do to her. She fights the obvious when she confronts the old T'Pol and learns that the old T'Pol loved her Trip and had stopped fighting it because she would lose him and she couldn't imagine life without him. That should have told the Young T'Pol what road to take but she denies what is actually in her Heart. How else could she have that erotic dream of them in the shower kissing passionately. Even with that stupid Zombie bit that Sussman threw in at the last. Her obvious concern for Trip when she consoled him over the death of his sister. It is difficult to reconcile that with the later episodes.

Also think that there was too much of her going off with Archer somewhere leaving Trip in the dark. Not good for a relationsip to develope.

Cogito, I am going to continue to write my love stories of Trip and T'Pol giving them a family of children and a happy marriage for one hundred years (by the time of Tnt the average life span of a human male should be about 125 years with some living longer.) I am writing one where Trip dies of old age at 145 years. He and t'Pol have been married since he was 36, They were married for over 100 years. Happily. No contencious (sp) marriage for me.

SB

[marchale]

Well, maybe the fact that they only had sex in Harbinger technically qualified it as a "one night stand" but I don't think either character looked at it as just sex, period. From how hurt Trip was the next day, you could tell he loved her - and as for T'Pol's behavior the next day, well - I'd like to think she just got cold feet because she was having difficulty accepting the fact that she did love him and didn't know how to deal with it emotionally. It's too bad the show didn't explore what was said between them in private, but I'm sure there was probably alot said because for her to drop her robe and offer herself to him as she did seems to imply that there was alot going on between them emotionally that unfortunatly just went unsaid on the show. I don't know if she was in love with him before she went to bed with him, or went to bed with him to further explore her feelings for him (maybe she wanted to see if it was just sexual attraction and lust or if she really did love him, who knows? But in any case, I think Harbinger was about them as a couple or her wanting to try to figure out how she felt about him. It certainly wasn't anything like the emotionless, purely sex stuff she was trying to get from Phlox to relieve her Pon Farr symptoms in that one episode I can't recall the name of, she could've grabbed the first guy walking down the corridor for that, it had nothing to do with her feelings about Phlox. (Though I thought it was interesting that she didn't choose Trip for that - am I reading something into the fact that she didn't want him involved in a Pon Farr thing because she didn't want him thinking she was only interested in him sexually and not emotionally? If so, I think that proves that her pushing him away the next day in Harbinger was just a bunch of BS she told him because she probably was confused or disturbed by the fact she loved him and didn't know how to cope with it emotionally as a Vulcan). But I definatly think her romantic feelings for him were there, in spite of the fact that she seemed too emotionally inexperienced to know how to deal with it in a more mature way.

Accchhh, I'm still mad at TPTB for not letting them have the kind of relationship on-screen that fanfic has to fill in the blanks on they didn't deal with in the show itself - sometimes you can get a headache trying to read between the lines or figure out things that are a mystery because of the poor way their relationship was dealt with on the show. Actually, I think both of the actors deserve a lot of credit for getting the fans to care about them as a couple despite TPTB's mishandling of their relationship and not giving them near as much to work with as what we wish they had. (Thats why I prefer fanfic over canon, at least fanfic writers can correct the mistakes and omissions they made on the show).

[marchale]

Ooops, just seen the posts made after I started writing a reply to this "one night stand" thing.

Okay, yeah - a person can't follow canon much with their relationship because of the inconsistancies and the poor way their relationship was handled on screen.

But that's where fanfic shines and becomes necessary, the fanfic writers out there should've been used on the show instead of their paid writers that were just following orders they were given from the folks in charge. At least fanfic writers let them have the kind of relationship they should be having (and I applaud all you fanfic writers for doing that )

[Silverbullet]

I have heard some say the brining them together would be a death knell for the show. They cite the show with Bruce willis and Cyble shepard. Fact is what killed that was not that the willis character and shepards character got together but the fact that the two actors couldn't stand one another. It had got so bad that if both wre on the set a brawl would break out. They simply hated one another so much that they fought on sight. That killed the show. willis and shepard were professionals and tried their best but the hate was too great.

So Trip and t'Pol could have been made a couple safely. the paring would only have to take bare percentage of the episodes occasionaly. The actors liked one another and got along well. I still believve it might have even saved the show. One problem, of course, is tthe poor misguieded souls who are AinTers. They would have been pushing for a Archer/T'Pol romance which Sussman would have been happy to give them.

SB

[marchale]

I have heard some say the brining them together would be a death knell for the show. They cite the show with Bruce willis and Cyble shepard. Fact is what killed that was not that the willis character and shepards character got together but the fact that the two actors couldn't stand one another. It had got so bad that if both wre on the set a brawl would break out. They simply hated one another so much that they fought on sight. That killed the show. willis and shepard were professionals and tried their best but the hate was too great.

So Trip and t'Pol could have been made a couple safely. the paring would only have to take bare percentage of the episodes occasionaly. The actors liked one another and got along well. I still believve it might have even saved the show. One problem, of course, is tthe poor misguieded souls who are AinTers. They would have been pushing for a Archer/T'Pol romance which Sussman would have been happy to give them.

SB

"a death knell for the show"??? Are they kidding? Well, I totally disagree with that opinion! Not only are Trip and T'Pol my favorite couple, they are also my favorite thing about Star Trek, period (from all of the series combined). As for Archer - yeah, I like him too alot, but he belongs with Hoshi, not T'Pol - like that AC/DC song says, "T-n-T is dy-no-mite!"