Just how "experienced" was T'Pol?

[putaro]

...I thought I should let Putaro know that it's not nice to inspire people's muses...

There is no liability assumed for inspiring muses.

[Cogito]

I think that T'Pol could have observed the lack of emotional maturity in general and concluded that they would be ill-suited to an interspecies relationship.

And I suspect that she would have been thinking about that from a Vulcan perspective, which would consider any uncontrolled emotions as a sign of immaturity. What she should have said was "ill-suited for an interspecies relationship with a Vulcan".

And I chuckle quietly to myself when I consider why T'Pol would have been thinking about the possibility of a human/vulcan relationship.

[marchale]

I think that T'Pol could have observed the lack of emotional maturity in general and concluded that they would be ill-suited to an interspecies relationship.

And I suspect that she would have been thinking about that from a Vulcan perspective, which would consider any uncontrolled emotions as a sign of immaturity. What she should have said was "ill-suited for an interspecies relationship with a Vulcan".

And I chuckle quietly to myself when I consider why T'Pol would have been thinking about the possibility of a human/vulcan relationship.

Yeah, I've wondered why she would've been thinking about it too, but I suspect she already fell in love with Trip by that time (whether she wanted to admit it to herself or not), either that or maybe she just found him so appealing that she thought if she was going to do it with a human, she'd want it to be him. Who knows? But I think with her mentioning in Harbinger about how she wanted to explore human sexuality seems to imply that was something she hadn't already done with a different human male before Trip came along. (And as ill-suited as Trip may be for a Vulcan, I can sure see why she felt sexually attracted to him, what woman wouldn't be? )

[WarpGirl]

...I thought I should let Putaro know that it's not nice to inspire people's muses...

There is no liability assumed for inspiring muses.

HA!

I think that T'Pol could have observed the lack of emotional maturity in general and concluded that they would be ill-suited to an interspecies relationship.

And I suspect that she would have been thinking about that from a Vulcan perspective, which would consider any uncontrolled emotions as a sign of immaturity. What she should have said was "ill-suited for an interspecies relationship with a Vulcan".

And I chuckle quietly to myself when I consider why T'Pol would have been thinking about the possibility of a human/vulcan relationship.

I'm not sure in the scene for Dear Doctor she was thinking about a human/Vulcan relationship.

PHLOX: I'm waiting for the computer to analyse some tissue samples. It'll only take a moment to repair. (T'Pol lies down again) Open, please. Wider. You've lived among humans for quite some time now, Sub-commander. I'm curious, have you ever known them to mate outside their species? Ah! There it is.
T'POL: Are you asking out of personal interest or scientific curiosity?
PHLOX: Both, I suppose. There's a crewman on board I've become close with. I think she's attracted to me.
T'POL: In my experience, humans lack the emotional maturity for interspecies relationships. They tend to be easily infatuated with things they find new. This crewman may simply be satisfying her curiosity at your expense.
PHLOX: Open.
PHLOX [OC]: Sub-commander T'Pol has a very pragmatic feel of the universe. I admire her logic although she lacks the instinctiveness that a more emotional response can provide. Somehow, I find this unsettling.
PHLOX: There. That wasn't so bad. Thanks for your insights.
T'POL: Be careful.

Here she seems to be focused on the idea of interspieces relationships in general, not just within terms of her own people, culture, and values. I thought she was extremely concerned about Phlox's well-being. She might have expressed that concern in a Vulcan manner, but she was worried. And she has a point, humans can barely commit to each other, let alone to a relationship with someone who is completely alien.

Frankly, I do believe that T'Pol was physically attracted to Trip from day one. I mean, physical attraction is usually instant and a biological reaction. Since she was stuck on a ship with Trip day in day out. So that attraction, is relentless. Still, I think it took time for her heart to get truly and deeply intrenched. Definitely by the time she offered to do the neuropressure that "heart stuff" was in play. But I think it took a long time.

For me, both Trip and T'Pol's progression in to loving each other was Body, mind, heart... Usually, in a typical romance, it's body, heart, mind. Look at two of the greatest "rocky" romances:

Beatrice and Benidict

Darcy and Elizabeth

Both couples where at first they're determined not to have anything to do with each other romatically. But over the course of time, to their utter amazement they start caring when the other person is hurt, or joyful. They don't really get why, because they still believe they don't even enjoy each other's company, other than to spar and argue. But they start caring deeply. It's only near the end of the tale where their minds catch up and they see the other as they really are, and not as the person they couldn't stand before.

With TnT it happened differently. First they were deeply sexually attracted, then it took a lot of time for them to take off their "blinders" with each other, and realize...

"Hey she's not a cold snooty Vulcan spy-witch who looks at humans like we're interesting rocks under her scanner.

Or...

There is more to him than a rash, undiciplined, uncontroled, man who is a slave to his own impulses.

Once they both figure that out, that's when the heart stuff starts to go into overdrive. And I think T'Pol was quicker on the uptake there. I mean based on what Trip tells T'Les the guy didn't realize it was real love until she told him she was marrying Koss.

And don't get me wrong, they both showed caring towards each other before season 3, but they both didn't realize it was because of affection. The primary motivation was that it was the right thing to do.

I guess this is my long winded way of saying I don't think they were an example of love at first sight.

[putaro]

I think the other thing that's interesting about her little quote is the casual acceptance of an interspecies relationship and the attitude of approval towards one that she projects. After all, Vulcans value emotional maturity so if an interspecies relationship requires it...

[WarpGirl]

Well as was mentioned she's been around 6 decades. She's probably seen examples of interspieces pairings during her life. While she might not have known any Vulcan/Human pairings personally. It's obvious that Vulcans have had relationships with non-Vulcans. As she tells Archer "It is extremely rare" but it HAS happened before. I think in this point of ST history, interspieces relationships are not the anomaly to Vulcans as some people portray them to be, HOWEVER they aren't considered "common" either.

For the most part, to me T'Pol's attitude says that I'm not going to say you should not do it. But this could be a very bad idea. Just be careful.

And I think it sums up how she thinks about being with Trip, she does love him very much, and I never believed she thought it was wrong to love him... However, in the TV show it's appearent that a huge part of her believed it was a bad idea that would hurt them both. Trip, didn't know how to assure her that it wasn't a bad idea, and she couldn't find her way on her own.

[Silverbullet]

Have to get on this board earlier. Lot to catch up.

First, in e2 T'Pol said Vulcans and humans have never been able to reproduce. I take this to mean Vulcan/Human couples. T'Pol was aware that there had been Vulcan/Human couples before she had her exploration with Trip.

Reading that passage from Dear doctor in light of what she had said i e2. She knew of Human/vulcan couples. She said she believed that interspecies relationships would not work out. That does not mean she had experienced one. she just knew about them. In her experience of learning about interspeceis realtionships the human vulcan one seemed least promising. She may have extrapolated that to Denobian/Human relationship.

From e2 we can conclude that t'Pol was wrong. Phlox and Amanda Cole had nine children. so a Denobian/Human relationship would work. Also, T'Pol's couunterpart married her Trip and had a child by him. Proving that a human/Vulcan relationship could work and couold produce a child.

Damned lack of continuity in Enterprise fouled up so much. Never could understand why T'Pol stubbornly resisted her relationsship with Trip when she knew it would work as proved by her ocuntrparts. Why did she seduce him then? Just becaue Amanda Cole was moving in? If she wanted no relationshp with Trip why should she get upset at Cole having one with him.

I reviewed Oasis last night. T'Pol gave adamned good imiitation of a very leaous woman in that. She raked Trip over the coals about Ah'Len when she referred to Trip getting along with female engineers. She was rude to the girl and cutting in her remarks to Trip who was puzzled about her attitude.

It was established that t'Pol was engaged to Koss at age Seven. She remained engged to him until she was in her 60's when his parents broke it off because T'Pol refused to return to vulcan for the marriage. Since she ws in that Engagement with Koss I assume she would not have other elationsips. Not sure what vulcan think of Faithfulness. It was after the parents broke off the engagement that T'pol's interest in Trip manifested itself.

In home T'Pol referred to Koss as her ex-fiance and her mother said that was not so implying that they were still engaged. T'Pol didn't seem to have a handle on relationships. Always wondered why she never remember he little night of exploration with Trip and why she didn't remember that they were mated. It was soon after that bound came up and she told Trip that they were mated and bonded. She must have known it in Home.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Okay SB maybe you should switch to decaf you're awfully peppery this morning... Let's see if I can make this coherent...

I wish I could remember that dang episode when she and Archer are in Daniels quarters! Someone help please? Anyway, in that episode she tells Archer that Vulcans have taken other mates, but it's rare. She also mentions the Vulcan Science Directorate concluded that Humans and Vulcans could not reproduce. And Archer remarks they said time travel was impossible too...

From her remarks in E2 it is pretty clear that since Vulcans arrived on earth there was at least some attempts for a human/Vulcan pairing. Who knows she could be referring to Mestral in Carbon Creek. But that doesn't mean any of these alleged pairings ever formed a mating bond. And even if they did, all mating bonds are different between individual couples. They could have been just as unaware of them as T'Pol initally was. Look at what she says in Bound...

T'POL: There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

Taking her words at their most literal meaning she's not saying it's a fact when a Vulcan has sex with someone they automatically bond. Only that some people believe that it happens. In their case, it happens to be true. She didn't start a sexual relationship knowing that she was going to become bound to Trip. To her it's the equivilent of an urban legend of Vulcan sexuality.

And for the record. Vulcans do not typically bond over one night stands. If they did, a guy who can't get home to resolve his Pon Farr with his mate, would never be able to resolve it with another woman... OR his bond with his wife would be null and void. That doesn't happen.

That's why TnT's bond has to be based on the Neuropressure and the consistent physical and telepathic contact they had for months prior to Harbinger.

Bottom line is T'Pol absolutely did not know she was bonded to Trip during Home. She had no reason to suspect they were until he left.

[putaro]

T'POL: There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

Taking her words at their most literal meaning she's not saying it's a fact when a Vulcan has sex with someone they automatically bond. Only that some people believe that it happens.

You know, "mates" doesn't just mean "has sex with". It can also mean the process of becoming a "mate"

I wish I could remember that dang episode when she and Archer are in Daniels quarters! Someone help please?

Who needs to remember things when you have Google?

Chrissie's Transcript site is very useful and you can do a search like this:

site:www.chakoteya.net/enterprise mate

Which leads us to the episode Future Tense (where they find the weird spacecraft that's bigger on the inside):

{Daniel's quarters]

T'POL: A database from the future?
ARCHER: Our time-travelling friend Daniels left it in his quarters.
(undoes the lock and goes in)
T'POL: I'm not certain Daniels would approve of this.
ARCHER: We'll keep it to ourselves.
(starts up the holographic database projector)
T'POL: A Vulcan cruiser. I don't recognise the configuration.
ARCHER: That's because it hasn't been built yet.
T'POL: Few Vulcans have ever chosen to mate with another species.
ARCHER: Worried about contaminating your genome with a little human DNA?
T'POL: There are significant biological differences between the species. It's unlikely we could reproduce. Humans and Vulcans.
ARCHER: (searching for the TARDIS) That could be it.
T'POL: The dorsal section is the wrong shape.
ARCHER: (carries on scrolling through) If a human and a Vulcan did have a child, I wonder if he'd have pointed ears. There. I think that's it. Look at the commission date. That's almost nine hundred years from now. Daniels talked about historians from the future. People who traveled back to study the past. That could be what this pilot was doing.

[WarpGirl]

You know, "mates" doesn't just mean "has sex with". It can also mean the process of becoming a "mate"

Absolutely true. Only in this case, it makes no sense that she was referring to the process of becoming mated to Trip because they never got that far. After Harbinger they were in a state of contention 90% of the time until after Damage. T'Pol's wedding to Koss interuppted any courtship after that. Then T'Les' death and the Kirshara interuppted them again. Until, Trip got sick of it all and left. So they never even had the chance to begin the process of becoming mates until Bound.

So in that instance I believe she can only be referring to their physical mating.

Thank you for finding that episode!

[putaro]

You know, "mates" doesn't just mean "has sex with". It can also mean the process of becoming a "mate"

Absolutely true. Only in this case, it makes no sense that she was referring to the process of becoming mated to Trip because they never got that far.
...
So in that instance I believe she can only be referring to their physical mating.

Oh, but she took him home to meet her mother!

And she said in Unexpected:

T'POL: Perhaps the next step would have been to meet her holographic parents. If I'm not mistaken, on some planets that's a precursor to marriage.

Hmmmm...just what we thinking T'Pol?

[Silverbullet]

I agree. There is a difference between mating and a one night stand. Hoshi had a one night stand in Two days and two nights. That was it, just a casual Sexual excapade.

When T'Pol seduces Trip she is in love with him even if she will not aknowledge it to herself or him. In that case it is not a one night stand. She Mates with him. Some birds and a few animals mate for life. They Mate. Most just get togeter once in a year to copulate for reproduction purposes. They don't remain together. Mating means they will be a couple for their lives.

T'Pol said there is along held belief that when a Vulcan mates there is a bond formed.

She knows they had mated and now is aware that a bond had formed. There was some time between those two events. She mated with Trip the night she seduced him and I believe that is what she wanted. To bind him to her. She paniced the next morning and did not tell Trip that they had become mates. Probably thinking he would never become awae of it. Doubt if she considred the ramifications of it. Since she was mated to Trip she could not mate with anther male until the Mating with Trip was disolved by a priest. She was in effect stuck with Trip

What I don't understand is why didn't the old t'Pol tell the young T'Pol about the possiblity of a bond since the old T'Pol and her Trip probably had one. Also, When Trip and T'Pol's minds were joined in her white space while he was on Comumbia and she was on Enterprise. They had to be at least a few light days apart. Probably more like a light year. That is a considerable distance. A light day is a few billion miles and a light year is six Trillion miles. Their minds being joined over that distance meant a bond of great power. T'Pol thought that was a day dream? She and Trip talked to one another. She asked him to leave and he said you leave this is my day dream. That had meaning. She is hearing him talk to her in a way that strongly suggests they are connected.

e2 was a fairly stupid episode formany reasons.

Anyway, t'Pol knew they had Mated. They didn't just have a one night stand. For her it was a lifelong thing even is she denied it to heself and did not tell Trip until Bound when he forced her hand.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Ok boys back up! I think we're having some issues in male/female communication here. Yes, she did bring him home to meet mom... That's huge! No question. But correct me if I'm wrong usually a man and a woman have some sort of formal definition of what their relationship is.

Here are some lables...

"We are a couple"

"We're friends with 'benifites' "

"We're boyfriend and girlfriend"

"We're significant 'others' "

"We're Partners"

"We're engaged"

"We're married"

And the list goes on and on until someone is sick... My point is, TnT never had a chance to decide what they were. Harbinger might not have been "casual sex" but technically it was ONE NIGHT! Don't blame me I didn't write it. T'Pol took Trip home and I'm willing to bet that she did it as a way to pave the way to putting a lable on them but they never got one! So I would not consider them as a "Couple" and it wasn't until Bound that they even began to take any sort of steps to become a proper functioning couple.

That's what I meant when I used the term "one night stand" they were never A COUPLE!

[putaro]

You're just worried about words.

So, the question at hand is what does "mate" mean in terms of forming this "mating bond"?

1) It's sex - you have sex, there's a chance you get bonded

2) It means that you're mates - that you both have a psychological desire to be together and be a couple

I'm not sure where applying a label to it comes in.

Now, to bring it back to the original topic - in Season 1, T'Pol likes to play the "older and wiser" Vulcan, and talked about her experience with this and that. In a number of cases she acts quite worldly even. By Season 3 she's acting pretty naive in many ways.

Now, bad writing aside, my opinion is that she was putting up a front originally. This doesn't jibe very well with the "Vulcans don't lie" bit, but we've seen that's not very true.

[Cogito]

They do lie, but mainly to themselves I think.

It's a river in Egypt.