T'Pol and Mind Melds

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:13 pm

Putaro wrote:I have a theory on Vulcans that's based on the best science I can find with Google. To some extent, emotions are based on our brain chemistry. I see Vulcans as having the ability to self-regulate their brain chemistry. This allows them to NOT experience emotions in many cases. You could take this as kind of a gating process where they can control when those chemicals are released and their meditation process would be a time when they can slowly release them while maintaining equilibrium.


Actually, you're not far off... Based off a lot of VOY (I wish more people around here liked it) Spock, Sarek, and The Savage Curtin it basically comes down to what you're talking about. However, even with attaining Kolinahr a Vulcan can never completely stop the production of chemicals and horomones that creat emotion. That would kill anyone. What meditation, and verious other diciplines allow them to do is basically ignore them. The training a Vulcan does throughout their lives is to look beyond what they're feeling so they would not be influenced by it.

Here's an example... Trip is captured by Romulans... Archer dies in the battle... T'Pol is in command... If Enterprise loses the battle the Romulans gain a strategic advantage pointing them directly to Earth... But T'Pol sees an opening to get Trip back, she can draw power from the weapons to the transporter, and beam him out... If she does this she fries the weapons, but the engines are fine, and they could retreat... The thing is that they might never get a chance to stop the invasion again...

The only logical choice she has is to find a way to destroy that ship, even if her mate is on it. Now let's pretend her brain chemistry is perfect... If she truly could turn off her emotions, in that moment she wouldn't even care that she's in effect killing her husband. That's not how it works. A Vulcan's love, hate, grief... all emotion is always there it's metaphorically 'locked in a box.'

I've always said GR used the wrong word when he chose logic as Vulcan philosophy. It should have been hyper-rationality. Vulcans are supposed to be rational. Not robots.

But as Spock said to Data in Reunification pt2... This is paraphazing...
you are the embodiment of everything my people aspire to be.


Which always confused me quite honestly because out of all characters on Trek Data, is probably the most compassionate of them...

And that's another thing, Vulcans are not sociopaths! If they were truly obligated to turn off every emotional impulse they would be incapable of comapassion. There would be no right or wrong, good or bad. Their entire existence woul have to centered on self. Something completely opposite of Surak's teachings.

And they wouldn't care whether they ate meat or not. They wouldn't have any preference what so ever, and we know they do. They wouldn't care if their food was disgusting, the music is terrible, or the dog smells bad. It's just not true.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Asso » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:16 pm

putaro wrote:Kind of a hard call for me. The Vulcans depicted in Enterprise are generally moralistic prigs, completely lacking in ethics (the doctors in Stigma, V'Las) and using "logic" to justify almost any kind of behavior. ...

Archer, especially as he was written in Seasons 1 and 2, though, is an idiot and listening to his (the writers') advice is not a good idea.

That's just perfect.

putaro wrote:The V'Tosh Katur in general were not bad people. If T'Pol had been hanging out in Engineering with Kov things would have been fine. But, instead of hanging out with the fat engineer, she chose to hang out with the smooth talker.

I think T'Pol was naive to let Tolaris do a mind meld with her (he even warns her it will be very intimate - and this to a woman who won't tell Trip her age because it is "intimate") but that doesn't make it her fault when he fails to respect her boundaries.

No, but it makes her a perfect idiot.
It is incredible the mess of stupid things that Authors were capable of doing.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:18 pm

Asso wrote:No, but it makes her a perfect idiot.

I swear sometimes guys are just cold!

All that work on my long post at 8am... Hope somebody reads it. :neutral:
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Asso » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:24 pm

Me? Cold?
Damn! You should see what it is - really - a cold guy! :badgrin:
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby panyasan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:34 pm

I wouldn't call T'Pol stupid. Naive, lonely and really wanting to talk to someone. And he is a fellow Vulcan, so he would be all logical and not doing something harmful, would he? Even the most intelligent woman when she is young can fall for that.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:40 pm

Have to watch Fusion again. Been a while. If I renenber correctly T'Pol was initiallly wary of them and Tolaris But Archers insistence that she mingle with them let her lower her guard. She was ripe for a guy like Tolaris who sems to be bsed on a certain type of human male who is a predator. Smooth, apparntly harmless, reassuring.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Cogito » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:41 pm

panyasan wrote:I wouldn't call T'Pol stupid. Naive, lonely and really wanting to talk to someone. And he is a fellow Vulcan, so he would be all logical and not doing something harmful, would he? Even the most intelligent woman when she is young can fall for that.


From the outset, though, she described them as dangerous. I don't think she would have trusted any of them (especially regarding something so intimate as a mind meld) if left to her own devices. But her friend and commanding officer gave her pretty emphatic advice to spend some time with them. I think it was presumptuous of him to advise her, and naive of her to trust his advice, on a matter that he knew nothing about. But that's typical Archer for you, bless 'im.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Asso » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:42 pm

panyasan wrote:I wouldn't call T'Pol stupid. Naive, lonely and really wanting to talk to someone. And he is a fellow Vulcan, so he would be all logical and not doing something harmful, would he? Even the most intelligent woman when she is young can fall for that.

So, basically, she would fall prey to the charms of the "handsome and charming"?
Mh, let me say this: surely understandable and forgivable, of course. Ma .. well ... maybe also a little stupid, isn't it?
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:44 pm

I still say she did it to demonstrate her trust in Archer. He said "these people aren't dangerous" he accused her of being closed-minded, and basically told her that if she listened to the VHC propaganda then she still wasn't a part of his crew... Tolaris approached her, she didn't go seeking him out.

ARCHER: It seems to me like, you've been busy avoiding them. I can understand that you might not approve of what they're trying to do, but for all we know they're onto something.
T'POL: That's unlikely.
ARCHER: Is it? Eight years. That's a pretty good track record.
T'POL: Just because they smile and eat chicken doesn't mean they've learned to master their emotions.
ARCHER: Maybe I'm just relieved to finally meet some Vulcans who aren't giving me a hard time. Then again, if they have found this balance.
T'POL: They're not the first ones to attempt this, Captain. Others have tried to reintegrate their emotions. They all failed. What they're doing is dangerous.
ARCHER: Unless my instincts are way off, they don't seem very dangerous to me. But I could be wrong. I can't order you to spend time with them, but I would encourage you to keep an open mind.

[Mess hall]

(it is empty, save for T'Pol getting a hot drink whilst reading a PADD)
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby panyasan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:50 pm

I don't think she spent time with Tolaris because he was handsome and charming in some way. More because she was curious and he seemed friendly. She problably felt that he was no good, but ignored that feeling. You can call it stupid. When I was younger I was more naive and didn't see some signs that would have warned me now. And I am smart girl. :D It was more a feeling that something was amiss. Luckily I was never harmed. Now I am old and wiser. 8)
Also -as WG pointed out - Archer is sort of encouraging to spent time with them. He sees no harm in them. Of course, he hadn't met everybody of the group.
Love is a verb.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Cogito » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:00 pm

panyasan wrote:I don't think she spent time with Tolaris because he was handsome and charming in some way. More because she was curious and he seemed friendly.


Judging by her dreams that night she skipped meditation, there was more than an academic interest there. Or perhaps that dream was a reflection of the vibes that she was getting from him? :dunno:

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:02 pm

Still ARcher should have kept h is nose out of it. She is Vulcan so she would know better than him of the danger presented by these Vulcans. Archer always had this I know better attitude. He never gave advice unless it was couched as an order but without Archer adding that is an order. What did he think she was going to do? Try to obey the comanding Officers tacit order. Sure she was alone at first in the Mess Hall. Tolaris approached her but she could have simply been polite and left. She certainly had done that to others. She was trying to go along with Archer. she let her guard down. Tolaris promised to teach her how to dream something she had wanted to experience. Intially nothing happened so she let him get closer. that is the way predators work and the way the unwary fall prey to them.

T'Pol wasn't stupid but naive and trusting after he appeared that Tolaris only wanted to help her.

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby panyasan » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:10 pm

Cogito wrote:
panyasan wrote:I don't think she spent time with Tolaris because he was handsome and charming in some way. More because she was curious and he seemed friendly.


Judging by her dreams that night she skipped meditation, there was more than an academic interest there. Or perhaps that dream was a reflection of the vibes that she was getting from him? :dunno:

That is possible. It also can be true that it's a mixure of curiosity, finding a friend and meeting someone attractive (in combination with some vibes she got from him).
Love is a verb.

Chapter 17 of Word of Ice is up!

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8522099/17/World-of-Ice

The Naked Truth and other necessities of life

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12056258/1 ... es-of-life

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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:34 pm

Or since Vulcans aren't singularly touch-telepaths. Tolaris could have touched her mind while she was unconscious. Without her meditation her mind didn't have it's usual defenses in place. If the V'tosh Kat'ur were experimenting with "forbidden" telepathic abilities, it isn't out of the realm of possibility. Also if he touched her mind that way it would have been easier to convince her to do the meld.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: T'Pol and Mind Melds

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:40 pm

TOLARIS: (bearing two mugs) Good morning. Chamomile?
T'POL: Thank you.
TOLARIS: How did it go?
T'POL: The lateral sensors were out of alignment. I haven't had a chance to scan the disodium layer.
TOLARIS: I mean last night.Did you take my advice?
T'POL: Yes.
TOLARIS: And your dreams?
T'POL: I'd rather not discuss them.
TOLARIS: It will get easier. Tonight will be less disturbing. (walking towards her)
T'POL: (backing away) I plan to resume meditating tonight.
TOLARIS: You can't give up after one trial.
T'POL: It was a mistake to try in the first place.
TOLARIS: Wasn't there anything enjoyable about the experience?


Notice how he immediately says she disn't meditate. How did he know? Then he specifically asks about her dreams and prods her by asking if they were "enjoyable"
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
Fics
May We Together Become Greater Than The Sum Of Us
*Rights,* Wrongs, and Choices


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