T'Pol and Mind Melds

[putaro]

Archer always had this I know better attitude.

That was particularly grating. Especially since this series was supposed to be how Humans learned how to get along with other species and formulate things like the Prime Directive. The "later" captains were often sanctimonious but at least they were supposed to have a body of wisdom to lean on. Archer didn't have anything.

Notice how he immediately says she disn't meditate. How did he know? Then he specifically asks about her dreams and prods her by asking if they were "enjoyable"

Didn't he suggest to her the previous day that she not meditate? It just sounds like he's following up on his "advice" to me.

[WarpGirl]

Okay, you missed it... Yes he did suggest she not meditate. But the very next morning, he immediately asks... How did it go? He doesn't ask Did you take my advice? until after she avoids answering his first question...

The "logical" thing to do if he didn't already know she skipped her meditation, would be to ask... Did you take my advice? then ask, How did it go?

It was more the way he asked his questions. There is some serious circumstantial evidence that he knew exactly what her dreams were about. And he couldn't have known that if he hadn't touched her mind before the meld.

[Cogito]

I mean last night.Did you take my advice?

Notice how he immediately says she disn't meditate. How did he know? Then he specifically asks about her dreams and prods her by asking if they were "enjoyable"

Surely he's asking her if she meditated? I don't see anything there to indicate that he knew the answer.

[Silverbullet]

There have been case studies o such a thing as this: control of others. There was a character named Svengali whose name came to represent that.

Even repuullsive people could do it. Rasputin had complete control over the Russian Royal Family, especially the Czarina. He was absolutely repulsive. There were rumors that she gave her daughter to him for sex.

Tolairs was that type. Once he gained control he wanted to make her do things against her will and core beliefs just to see if he could manipulate her.

Think the writers put too much human predator in to Tolaris.

SB

[putaro]

Okay, you missed it... Yes he did suggest she not meditate. But the very next morning, he immediately asks... How did it go? He doesn't ask Did you take my advice? until after she avoids answering his first question...

Well, or he's just a jerk who assumes she's going to take his advice. I'd say that's too subtle for this show.

[WarpGirl]

It's the order of the questions. Look...

TOLARIS: How did it go?

TOLARIS: I mean last night. Did you take my advice?

Rule #1 in the pedator handbook, is the same as rule # 1 for a lawyer... Never, ever ask a question you don't know the answer too.

SB I've studied the Romanov's since I was 8 years old! Tsarina Alexandra, was never in a sexual relationship with Rasputin and she most certainly did not give any of her 4 daughters to him for sex!

[Cogito]

Rule #1 in the pedator handbook, is the same as rule # 1 for a lawyer... Never, ever ask a question you don't know the answer too.

You're assuming that because he asked the question he already knew the answer. If you're prepared to make assumptions like that then you could probably justify more or less any position you wanted to. But I don't think it's a reasonable assumption. It seems to me that the fact he asked the question is pretty strong evidence that he didn't know the answer.

[Silverbullet]

Didn't say the Czarina had Sex with Rasputin and I said there were RUMORS that she may have given him one of her daughters for Sex. That is not the same as saying outright that she had sex with him and that she postiviely gave one of her daughters to him.

Rasputin was evil and weilded power over the Czar and the Czarin. That is historical. It took a hell of a lot for those young Officers to kill him. Rasputin the "Mad Monk"

Back to Tolaris in the Episode the actor looked sneaky when he first appeared. His approach to T'Pol was a bit too un Vulcan. She should have had warning flags waving about then. She seemed to have had some inkling that he was dangerous. Archers meddling certainly upset her equalibrium (sp)

SB

[WarpGirl]

Maybe it's a girl thing... IDK, it's like from the very moment he appeared on screen the actor was able to convey an almost lazer like intensity. He barely even addressed anyone else at the dinner table. The whole vibe was like a hunter bating prey. Like he knew exactly what to say and how to say it. Even if he didn't know, know, whether or not she did as she asked. The very act of making the assumption is enough to throw her off guard.

I can admit this is only my POV... But I have to admit, Enrique Murciano played Tolaris like the perfect charming serial killer. I mean he milked every ounce of manipulation out of those lines. And Fusion had a fairly good script. But he took it over the top. The way he said those lines, and his gestures seemed to say, I know all of your secret forbidden desires. Everything you don't even comprehend.

[Silverbullet]

Got to go along with Wg on this. It is a tactic oof Lawyers never to ask a question they don't (think) already know the answer too. Predators would be the same way. Tolaris is checking to see if she is doing what he wants her to do to fall in to what he has planned. He seems to know it but needs her confirmation.

SB

[Cogito]

Got to go along with Wg on this. It is a tactic oof Lawyers never to ask a question they don't (think) already know the answer too. Predators would be the same way. Tolaris is checking to see if she is doing what he wants her to do to fall in to what he has planned. He seems to know it but needs her confirmation.

SB

I can't stop you from making any assumption you want about what was going on inside Tolaris' head, but there's nothing in that dialog to suggest that's the case and I don't think it's reasonable to interpret the asking of a question as evidence that he knew the answer.

[Silverbullet]

Tolaris was subtle. He was the classic predator. He knew his victem her vulnerable spots. He played on her weakess. He gained her trust (or least her lowering of her guard) He planted ideas in her head and wanted to know if they took root. He probably was sure but as I say wanted her confirmation and her acceptance of his ideas as far as he had promisted to teach her.

SB