Romance vs. Love Story

[WarpGirl]

Hey I agree! By that time they're both completely in place where if it wasn't totally impossible (in the other's mind) then yeah they love idea seperately, but they have no clue the other might agree until that moment!

[panyasan]

Woah! Back up! I did NOT say Trip was a jerk for not asking allergie or migraines!! Where did I say that. I didn't even USE the word Jerk in that post!!!!!!!! And my remark about buying an ice cream maker was to give the guys here a good idea for a romantic present for their S.O.'s, Partners, girlfriends, wives, whatever!

I don't what you're talking about Panyasan. Are you Ok?

Through the whole discussion you tried to paint Trip as a rather insensitve male. At one point you called him a pig. I don't think Trip is insensitive. Culturally ignorant and a real guy in his 30-ties, but he is very sensitive. Just as I think T'Pol is a strong woman who had to function under difficult circumstances (like you) and I do think their relationship could work and be good for both of them (unlike you).

With this, I wish you all a happy continuation of this discussion.

[WarpGirl]

Okay... Ummm. Hmm. First of all, it was not my intention to paint Trip as anything but A very good man, who made some very big mistakes when it comes to women. I don't know a man who hasn't done that! And if there is one out there, try and find me! No wait, don't I'll just screw up and make you miserable.

I don't think Trip is a jerk, or "insensitive" in the sense that he doesn't care. He cares! But sometimes he does do and say things that most certainly are "insensitive." Again every other man alive has done the same things from the beginning of time! Guys am I wrong?

And I most certainly do believe TnT can work! I've only written 97 pages thus far trying to prove it!

I don't see how acknowleging their imperfections takes away from the love they share. Do we love people because they are perfect, never make mistakes, and never hurt us? OF COURSE NOT! Why should TnT?

[Silverbullet]

I still think that there was an attraction in Unexpected on T'Pol's part. The electricity was there. She showed it by her anger at him for coming back in a family way. If there was no attraction it would not have bothered her so much. She doesn't know him that well but he has a strong physical pull that she feels. She is physically drawn to him and she is protecting that pull.

T'Pol showed that attrction in both Unexpected and Oasis. She connected the two episodes by referring to Trip becoing Pregnant when he encountered Ah'Len. From what trip said about her never letting him live it down she must have been bugging him about it constantly. Possesiveness. You cheated on mebuster and I aint going to let you forget it.

SB

[WarpGirl]

I already acknowledged the physical attraction SB.


Oh and the "pig" thing it came from here...

"Paris? Did you program this guy?"
"Yeah. Why?"
"He's a pig. And so are you."

Now knowing how I feel about Does anyone really think I meant it in a mean-spirited derogatory way? Seriously, in the USA Men call themselves pigs, dogs, wolves... When describing certain sexual conquests. I don't see the issue here

[WarpGirl]

You cheated on mebuster and I aint going to let you forget it.

SB

How could she believe Trip cheated on her if they were not in a relationship! That's insane SB! Sane human women do not think like that! A vulcan woman isn't going too!

[Cogito]

I still think that there was an attraction in Unexpected on T'Pol's part. The electricity was there. She showed it by her anger at him for coming back in a family way. If there was no attraction it would not have bothered her so much. She doesn't know him that well but he has a strong physical pull that she feels. She is physically drawn to him and she is protecting that pull.

T'Pol showed that attrction in both Unexpected and Oasis. She connected the two episodes by referring to Trip becoing Pregnant when he encountered Ah'Len. From what trip said about her never letting him live it down she must have been bugging him about it constantly. Possesiveness. You cheated on mebuster and I aint going to let you forget it.

SB

I like to think that there was some unacknowledged chemistry between them right from that very first meeting. But I see it as a case of opposites attracting. Although their core values may be surprisingly similar, the careful, sensible and methodical Vulcan must have found it very difficult to put up with the idiocies of the illogical and emotional crew she had been assigned to help and protect. When Trip's pregnancy was discovered, all the humans assumed that he had had sex with Ah'Len. Even when they claimed to believe his denials, I always had a sense that they didn't really believe him. So, given T'Pol's perspective of humans, and the fact that lots of people who knew him quite well were happy to assume he'd behaved improperly, T'Pol would almost certainly assume the worst. I saw her reaction as mainly the anger and disappointment of a superior, finding a junior officer had exercised such poor judgement. With my TnT shipper hat on, I could see that she might be especially disappointed when the officer in question was somebody she was starting to like and trust, despite all the logical reasons why she shouldn't like or trust him.

[Brandyjane]

Wow! You guys have been BUSY! WarpGirl, I agree with nearly everything you've written about T'Pol. The one area where we differ is T'Pol's reaction in "Unexpected." Now I know that it does not make sense for her to actually be "jealous jealous" of Ah'len considering that she's (1) a VULCAN, and (2) she's only known Trip for a few weeks. But I really think she is! I could write off her words to Trip in sickbay as just a senior officer berating a junior officer and perhaps a woman getting back at a man who's teased her mercilessly - except for one thing. Watch T'Pol's reaction when Trip gets back from the Xyrillian ship. You can see her in the background staring at him from the moment he steps onto the bridge. She literally turns her head to stare at him from the moment he steps through the door to the moment he finally stops in front of the viewscreen. Then she keeps looking up at him from her station. Her head whips up when Trip thanks Ah'Len for taking care of him. I didn't notice it the first time I watched the episode, but I've been rewatching the episodes on Hulu, and I swear that's what happened. I even went back to rewatch that scene to make sure I wasn't imagining it.

Again, it does not make sense for her to be jealous, but I have a theory. I think that perhaps T'Pol was still a little under the influence of the pollen from "Strange New World" and it was affecting her control a little, perhaps magnifying an embarrassing physical attraction she might have for that fascinating human male. I don't think she was madly in love with him or anything like that. I do think she was starting to be possessive of him - probably on a subconscious level - even that early on. Actually, I think T'Pol probably was more attracted to Trip early on than Trip was to T'Pol.

Changing the topic slightly (sorry, but I have to address this!), I have to quote SB from way back on page seven:

Think the way T'Pol was written she came across as weak at time and confused at other times. She got herself addicted to TD. She allowed Tolaris to get far too close and paid for it. She was never shown to be the Vulcan ex intelligence operative who was highly trained in the martial arts of Vulcan.

In both Demons and Terra Prime she docily goes along being dragged by one or another guard. She enver tried to nerve pinch one, grab his weaapon and go looking for Trip. Or go after Paxton. She often was prtrayed as a damsel in distress. The seventh is a good example. It took Super Archer to save the day. While she stood by.

I remeber in Chosen Realm she tried to wrestle a man from her seat at the science consul. He shoved her away easily. That should not have happened.

This has always REALLY bugged me, too! The woman was a trained operative! What's up with this? My theory is that the fullara mind wipe may have also damaged or wiped away some of her training so that she was only left with more basic self-defense skills. Or, perhaps the fullara didn't work well enough and she was still so seriously traumatized that she simply could not fight back the way she was trained.

[WarpGirl]

I agree with nearly everything you've written about T'Pol. The one area where we differ is T'Pol's reaction in "Unexpected." Now I know that it does not make sense for her to actually be "jealous jealous" of Ah'len considering that she's (1) a VULCAN, and (2) she's only known Trip for a few weeks. But I really think she is! I could write off her words to Trip in sickbay as just a senior officer berating a junior officer and perhaps a woman getting back at a man who's teased her mercilessly - except for one thing. Watch T'Pol's reaction when Trip gets back from the Xyrillian ship. You can see her in the background staring at him from the moment he steps onto the bridge. She literally turns her head to stare at him from the moment he steps through the door to the moment he finally stops in front of the viewscreen. Then she keeps looking up at him from her station. Her head whips up when Trip thanks Ah'Len for taking care of him.

Well, hmm I never saw it. But the pollen theory works for me!

[panyasan]

Does anyone really think I meant it in a mean-spirited derogatory way? Seriously, in the USA Men call themselves pigs, dogs, wolves... When describing certain sexual conquests. I don't see the issue here

Not to spoil your fun, WG, but I googled "Amercian meaning of the word "pig" and this is what the ultimate source of words says about the use of pig.

pig - definition
View thesaurus entry for pig
What are red words?
Using the thesaurus
CloseWhat are red words?90% of the time, speakers of English use just 7,500 words in speech and writing.These words appear in red, and are graded with stars. One-star words are frequent, two-star words are morefrequent, and three-star words are the most frequent.

Thesaurus

The thesaurus

Pig
1 an animal with no fur and a curly tail kept by farmers for its meat. A female pig is called a sow and a young pig is called a piglet. The meat from a pig is called pork.

2an insulting word for someone who behaves in an unpleasant way
You greedy pig! You’ve eaten up all the ice cream.
He’s just an ignorant pig.

To sum up: the use of the word pig is an insult. Case closed.

[Cogito]

Now knowing how I feel about Does anyone really think I meant it in a mean-spirited derogatory way? Seriously, in the USA Men call themselves pigs, dogs, wolves... When describing certain sexual conquests. I don't see the issue here

Being called a pig is always an insult. It could be said as a joke (as any insult can) but it's an insult. I'm not familiar with terms like 'dog' and 'wolf' being used as a complement but I suppose it could be taken as a reference to being a hunter. But pigs don't have any connotation like that. If you call somebody a pig, it's an insult.

[Silverbullet]

In my youth (teen) some girls wre called Pigs by males. It was insulting. "she is a pig" it often meant she had loose morals. Or at lest some thought she did. Females called males wolves and when a male whistled at a female it was called a Wolf Whistle. Males were generaly knows as wolves always on the prowl for one thing. So Pig and Wolves were in commoon usage in my teen years. Pig was insulting while wolf could be taken as complementary depending on its context.

T'Pol could be attracted to Trip physicly. It is not unkown for someone to be attracted to another with out the others knowledge. An attraction from a distance. One way generally unless the other felt an attraction too but was silent about it. T'Pol could have been possesive about Trip because she was attracted to his masculinity (sp) and physical attractiveness. She could hide it behind her Vulcan facade.

As far as men saying stupid things. Yup, usully without thought. Something slips out that isn't meant but can cause a lof of trouble between two people. Been there done that.

SB

[justTripn]

Everyone being good? Everyone being nice? I don't feel like reading this whole thread. *scowls a warning*

[Silverbullet]

A very courteous and genteel discussion. amicable. Everyone is behaving. Not a cross word, yet.

SB

[Ulva]

Which one has explosions in it? Sign me up for that one.

Well, I have to agree with Rigil on that one.

On the topic romance versus love, I have always interpreted romance as a short lived fling, a flirtation, a positive break in your every day life that is based on what you yourself read in to that person. It rarely has a chance to last. When it's over it's not difficult to move on and you can remember it with fondness later on.

A love story is something completely different. It changes perspectives, priorities, and it's about what that other person actually is and how you are drawn to that. Falling in love can be dramatic (but not always), but once the worst wild fire calms down the steady flame is what makes intimate life with another individual so compelling and something you just don't walk away from that easily. In fact, break ups are unpleasant stories no matter how you look at it.

TnT isn't a romance in my world, it's a love story. They discover that they have a mutual understanding and respect for each other and are attracted to each other's strong points. Their difficulties are to be expected considering that they have such different backgrounds, but they overcome them. It's not a walk in the park, but they obviously appreciate the other enough to want to continue. There is a bond involved, sure, but that doesn't magically pop up from nothing, it has to have some foundation.

Harbinger is difficult. For the drama and suspense The Morning After has to be awkward. She can't be all starry eyed (and really shouldn't considering what's going on behind that Vulcan façade of hers) and Trip just has to misinterpret exploration (which it actually could be called) as experiment and him being a lab rat. TPTB threw them together and broke them up. I don't mind them dealing with T'Pol's obvious jealousy and what Trellium-D does to a Vulcan even with a little exposure, but it wasn't well done. They could have kept the suspense and explaining her chaos without dropping a robe. I remember well the raging discussions back then and people reacted poorly to it. Those who didn't care for that part of ENT was irritated, the A/T'ers were furious trying in every way blaming it on all sorts of things while the TnT'ers vehemently defended it. The finer details of what was going on was lost because of a naked back side.

As for having sex without any attachment, I'm all for it if it feels right. Having said that, the Risa affair wasn't to my taste. They had a tendency to make out Reed and Trip as one dimensional somewhat unintelligent male schmucks at times the two first seasons. I think they did it as a comic relief but I didn't enjoy it. They don't strike me as people with their heads under their arms otherwise, so why paint them that way on occasion?

BTW, Trip isn't clueless about women, he just don't think he's god's gift to women. He's as most people, you kind of have a clue but you're not cocky enough to act on it, mostly because it means way too much to us.