Romance vs. Love Story

[WarpGirl]

Oh darling you know half the time I don't "get it" I'm cursed I tell you, just cursed.

[panyasan]

@ Asso
But hey! I did ask a lot of interesting questions! Some one like to answer them?
And my quote of the day "When you love some one, you have to compromise".
I don't think it's romance vs love, romance can be part of love.
Love can make you do romantic things, like trying to spent time together. When the romance doesn't work out, that's another story. Maybe it just means that the love didn't grow further.

I am off to bed now, because I don't know if I make sense.

[Asso]

Dream well, my friend.
I do not know if this can help you sleep well, but know that I think like you.
Mamma mia! That conceited I am!

[Silverbullet]

Romance Vs Love. In bound T'Pol exposed her feelings by kissing Trip in public. As I understand it that is not usual Vulcan behavior. She must be telling him she loves him. To do that spontaneously (sp) Lke her seduction of Trip it is born of panic that she will lose him. I believe that T'Pol knew full well that when they did the dirty in Harbinger it was more than a roll in the hay as T'Pol went in to it loving Trip and I believe he loved her although he may not have been aware of how much he loved her. That would seem to be the only way they became mates. They had to want one another very much for that sex to turn in to a bond. T'Pol says in bound that when a Vulcan mates.... Not when a Vulcan has a one night stand............. it is believed that a bond is created.

That is to me one of the reasons the morning after scene made no sense at all. Why did she bother to seduce him only to stab him in the heart the next morning.

Romance is easy Love takes work to nture it and allow it to grow.

SB

[WarpGirl]

SB The amount of actual knowledge T'Pol had about Vulcan mating bonds is about the same amount of knowledge I I have about cold fusion. Which is to say next to nothing! Let's look at the transcript...

T'POL: There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond.

Okay, now just starting with this line it's clear that she didn't think it was a sure thing at the time of their physical intimacy. For her, at that time, it was a rumor.

TUCKER: And you're making me immune?
T'POL: Apparently.

To me this says that she had no clue that she had bonded with Trip. He left, then the "white space" dreams started, she was probably freaking out a bit. Then when he's not going nuts for the Orian women, she decides to consult the Kir'Shara to see if there is anything to the rumors of "psychic bonds" and 'Lo and behold, BANG!

My point is, that while I believe she cared for him deeply when she took him to bed, she wasn't thinking "We'll be bonded and mates" she was thinking, Amanda Cole CAN'T have him!!!! That night was completely about desire, jealousy, and fear. She may have loved him, but that wasn't her reasoning. And the next morning she was completely over her head and drowning in something she was in no way able to handle.

As for Trip, typical male when a woman jumps him he goes for it. I mean it was not the first time this had happened to him! I completely believe him when he tells T'Les he didn't realize he was completely in love with her until she told him she was marrying Koss.

[Silverbullet]

She wasn't sure of the bond because he was Human and as far as she knew bonds only formed between Vulcans. Also, she probably wasn't that sure that the mating took. She probably had every intention of mating with him and all that meant to ward off Cole. apparently worked cause we never saw cole again.

I still belive she meditated on what she was going to do in the time before Trip came to her quarters. She knew what she was doing and it was done with malice of forethought. She was going to have her man, period and cole damned sure wasn't going to have him. She used a tacttic that may be universal, Show him the goodies and then bed him. Give him a free sample so to speak. Since she had evry intention of it being permanent she was on safe ground. I still doubt that she was confused the following morning. The look on her face didn't show confusion at all.

As Rigel Kent has suggested the morning after was to keep the will they won't they going.

SB

[Distracted]

As I've said before, I really don't like your version of T'Pol, SB. She's a conniving b***h. I can't see how you can think she'd do something like that and still say you like the character.

[putaro]

That is to me one of the reasons the morning after scene made no sense at all. Why did she bother to seduce him only to stab him in the heart the next morning.

To me, T'Pol made perfect sense. She felt an emotional connection but she has absolutely no tools for dealing with it. First, given what we've been told about her background and Vulcan culture, she's never "been in love" with anyone before. Second, she now has feeling for a Human - big no no. Third, she has a habit of deflecting and dissembling about personal matters.

To me, it was Trip's reaction that made no sense. Yah, he likes her. If she'd told him "It didn't happen," or "Never again," I could see him being upset. But he's upset that she says calls it "exploration of human sexuality." He should know her well enough by now to know that she never tells the truth when it comes to emotions and that's just her cover story. I would have expected him to respond with "Well, I'm happy to be your lab rat. You know, there's a whole lot more we can explore."

I think the writers enjoyed placing T'Pol in a typical "male" position, that is, logical, unemotional, and then putting Trip into a more "female" position - emotional reactions, looking for a "relationship." I think they needed more setup to sell that, though. It's out of character for Trip as we knew him.

[WarpGirl]

OMG SB You scare me...

She knew what she was doing and it was done with malice of forethought.

Malice I am reading this correctly right? You did say malice? Well you must think she's the most cold hearted witch ever developed by a writing team if this is what you truly believe. If you (and some of the other men here) think her actions so well thought out and planned, then take her rejecting Trip as deliberate... No wonder you men are so harsh. OMG I'd hate her if I thought she was like this.

Putaro I thought I was the only person on this site who thought Trip's reaction made no sense what so ever! You have NO IDEA how much it comforts me that a "guy" feels the same way! THANK YOU!

[Silverbullet]

Malice is not used as you believe in that statement. It means with intent of forethoght. In other words she knew what she was intending to do. Itis not malicious. It goes WAAAy back. Anyway, she is not malicious at all. She just knows what she is going to do. Forethought if you will.

I do not think T'Pol is a hard hearted bitch. Just the opposite. I think rather she is a woman who is confronted by another woman who is a competitor for what she feels is hers, Trip. She cannot use Vulcan logic. It would sound cold to Trip. So she uses what she found in the Data base on Humans and human sexuality. She obviously intended to seduce him. IN all of her other NP sessions she wore Pajamas. This time she has on a robe and she is naked under it. She drops the robe. What does she belive Trip will do. How will he react. IN this case Trip reacts like any normal red blodded male confronted by the woman he is mad about. She is naked and offereing herself to him. He has every right to belive she means it and that she means it to lead to something more permanent. Don't think he belives she is in to one night stands. It is a hell of a big step for T'Pol to take. Against all of her Vulcn traditions and her culture. She is burning bridges behind her. She is stepping in to the unknown. She had to think and meditate about it before Trip showed up. She still has her Vulcan Logic and control. If she chooses to do this it is a rational decision for her.

SB

[WarpGirl]

SB I am very, very sorry to say this but you could not be more wrong in your choice of words. This is how the Dictionary defines malice...

–noun
1.
desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness: the malice and spite of a lifelong enemy.

2.
Law . evil intent on the part of a person who commits a wrongful act injurious to others.

In any case what Dis says still goes. If you truly believe she acted this way with deliberate intent to seduce Trip than callously rejected him the next day just so he wouldn't have sex with Cole then that is the textbook definition of a "callous b****" there's no other way to put it.

[Brandyjane]

That is to me one of the reasons the morning after scene made no sense at all. Why did she bother to seduce him only to stab him in the heart the next morning.

To me, T'Pol made perfect sense. She felt an emotional connection but she has absolutely no tools for dealing with it. First, given what we've been told about her background and Vulcan culture, she's never "been in love" with anyone before. Second, she now has feeling for a Human - big no no. Third, she has a habit of deflecting and dissembling about personal matters.

To me, it was Trip's reaction that made no sense. Yah, he likes her. If she'd told him "It didn't happen," or "Never again," I could see him being upset. But he's upset that she says calls it "exploration of human sexuality." He should know her well enough by now to know that she never tells the truth when it comes to emotions and that's just her cover story. I would have expected him to respond with "Well, I'm happy to be your lab rat. You know, there's a whole lot more we can explore."

I think the writers enjoyed placing T'Pol in a typical "male" position, that is, logical, unemotional, and then putting Trip into a more "female" position - emotional reactions, looking for a "relationship." I think they needed more setup to sell that, though. It's out of character for Trip as we knew him.

I sort of agree with you except for one thing: I think that by the end of their conversation, Trip figured out that T'Pol's "exploration explanation" was a bunch of bull. I think he was expecting a very different conversation and it completely threw him for a loop. That's why he reacted with anger at first. But Trip's a smart guy and I think he does know T'Pol well enough to figure out it was all just a cover story. If not, then his comment at the end that they could still continue neuropressure doesn't make sense. I always thought that was the audiences' clue that Trip was on to T'Pol.

[enterprikayak]

To me, it was Trip's reaction that made no sense. Yah, he likes her. If she'd told him "It didn't happen," or "Never again," I could see him being upset. But he's upset that she says calls it "exploration of human sexuality." He should know her well enough by now to know that she never tells the truth when it comes to emotions and that's just her cover story. I would have expected him to respond with "Well, I'm happy to be your lab rat. You know, there's a whole lot more we can explore."

SO WELL FREAKING PUT!!!! YES!!!! *THAT* IS WHAT HE WOULD HAVE SAID. (That mess hall convo wasn't T'POL ooc, it was TRIP ooc. Since when does the death-defying chief engineer of enterpise give up first thing, and slink away with his tail between his legs? Cripes!)

__________________________________________

Here's my 2 cents re T'Pol:

She wasn't thinking.

She may or may not have made a conscious/unconscious choice with the robe, but the on-the-fly CONVERSATION with Trip ("What just happened here?") is what led to the surprise admission of mutual attraction. In fact it is TRIP who playfully accuses her of being jealous and sort of up's the sexio-verbal ante, if you will. Then she lunges. Both being "red-blooded" biological creatures, they go at it, as obviously there IS that big longstanding attraction that they just accidentally talked about.

But THEN! He leaves her quarters after sex, they each have time alone to think. What does the Vulcan think? "OMG! What did I just *DO*?! I gotta get control of this crazy scenario! What kind of screwed up excuse for a Vulcan am I??? Eject the warp core! EJECT!!!!!"

And so at breakfast in a room full of nosy humans, she lacquers herself with Vulcan aplomb and tries her best to backpedal. Again: thinking on the fly....no callous logic here. Her emotions are all fuked up from the trellium. No logic. No forethought. No malice (however u define it). She has no idea what she's doing. She's never kissed a guy or had a boyfriend let alone shagged an alien engineer before. No concept of how to run a human relationship based on emotion, and why would she?

So—frightened—she runs. Pushes all the humans (esp. Trip) away. As usual. I find the whole thing to be delightfully "in character" for Vulcan T'Pol...even if it is serially annoying for shippers.

You know what would have made NO sense? If Trip and T'Pol had just 1-2-3 easily formed a relationship right after that surprise encounter. THAT wouldn't ring true. That's not how Vulcan/Human interactions ever go. (unfortunately. ) lol

I explain this concept in some detail in Coitus Experimentus.

just IMO.

[WarpGirl]

I have one issue with that eK she does not have red blood!

Okay I'm gonna turn the tables here and yes I know a bunch of people will want me dead but I'm beyond caring. Let's talk about our boy Trip for a while shall we... Ah Trip wonderful guy, really quite the catch. Handsome, intelligent, funny, strong values, nearly the perfect guy. Except for one thing, when it comes to women HE HAS NO CLUE!

And quite honestly, I don't get it. What is it about this man that makes 90% of this fandom give him a complete hall pass for every implosion in his relationship with T'Pol? Does he get no culpability despite being a fully adult male with basic reasoning skills? Let's look at his romantic history.

At the age of 30 by his own admission he had 3 "serious" relationships that all went bust. Now I know that some guys don't want to settle down in their 20's and you know what, I'm fine with that. But I'm betting that if Trip considered these relationships "serious" he must have thought each of them had potential for a life long commitment at some point. I very much doubt ALL of the relationships ended because these women treated him horribly in some way.

Now, technically his "first" sexual encounter was a total accident of epic proportions. I'm not casting blame here, but the man is a bit of a flirt, and I'll bet he was flattered by Ah'len's attention, up to the moment he found out he was expecting. He certainly wasn't objecting to being singled out by an "attractive" funny and intelligent woman. And she certainly was assertive!

Then there's Liana probably the only one of the women shown as a potential romantic interest, who wasn't exceptionally agressive. But little girl had game. She cooked for him, asked him questions, listened with rapt attention, and flirted in a completely pure and innocent way. And boy oh boy did our guy eat it up like hot fudge on a spoon! He basked in the attention, flirted back just as hard, and made her a replicator prototype that made ice cream. It might have been the only kiss he got that he worked hard for... And come to think about it, that makes me mad.

Then there is Risa. Where we learn that even a really great and awesome guy can be a complete pig at times. Our boy had one thing on his agenda, HAVE SEX. He wasn't looking for a love or even a lasting connection. He was on the prowle. The only thing comforting about it is that he was so completely awful at it that I could laugh! Obviously he doesn't always need feelings when it comes to sex.

Which leads us too Princess Fishstick! Ah not only does she prove that he doesn't need love to have sex, the person he has sex with doesn't even have to be all that likable. She spends the entire time treating him like garbage and then decides to jump him. And like he seems to do every time when a woman is the aggressor he caves like a wet paper bag. Now that's actually a depressing thought. Now one good thing about our boy is even when he's a complete moron, he's a nice one. Actually this might be the only way to make this one forgivable.

And finally we come to Harbinger... Where we have our boy is quite enjoying the attention of the agressive (of course) attractive, and quite witty Amanda Cole. Now to give credit where it's due, this woman is a pretty good catch herself. Beautiful, accomplished, tough-as-nails, and smart. Added bonus is that she's a hometown girl. Looks good on paper to me. But is our boy doing much pursuit here? NOPE! Once again he didn't work for the kiss he got. I'm beginning to think he's a bit spoiled. He didn't even have to work to get her hands on his behind!

Now entering T'Pol. T'Pol who has worked night after night touching his smelly self ensuring he gets a good night's rest. T'Pol who left her career, family, possibly even facing exile all to help his people. T'Pol who has tried her darndest to give him a place where he can de-stress and feel comfortable unloading his burdens. T'Pol who told him she doesn't give a hang about gossip, and rumors. And most importantly T'Pol who has been slightly off for a while.

Now, like I said this is a 33 year old man, with basic reasoning skills and compared to T'Pol more than his fairr share of sexual encounters of several veriaties. But what does he do when she goes from 0 to warp 9 knowing that she is jealous and something is definitely not right, you guessed it... He falls apart like a wet newspaper he just falls into bed witout one thought of the consequences. Nevermind that he was rather enjoying being pursued by Cole just a few hours before...

My point is this I don't believe he had any right to be upset in Harbinger! He's a grown man, one who has been around the block more than once. One who was more than willing to do a little "experimentation" with some attractive alien women of his own. If anything he should have been more supportive of T'Pol! HELLO she gave him her virginity, and she was freaking out. Totally understandable if you're the slightest bit compassionate.

But as I said before our boy is a good man. He's nice. And while I don't believe he knew he was in love at that time, he did care deeply enough. So he says...

TUCKER: Doesn't mean we can't keep doing the neuro-pressure though.

So to sum it up I'll let our guy speak for himself, this is from Home...

TUCKER: I don't think I knew it until we were standing over that lava field and she told me she was going to marry Koss. That's when it hit me. I was going to lose her. I wanted to tell her right there, but I couldn't.

[enterprikayak]

DYAM BRUTHA!

Okay: everyone! Required reading! Warpgirl's above post! The whole thing! No skimming!

(and while we read it, please go apply to Harvard lawschool, K. Off you go now. That's a good girl.)

No one has ever summed up the Trip character more accurately.

There's a definite WTF aspect to his supposed psyche. Which we *may* be able to blame on the standard committee-writing and committee-directing that Trek suffers through.

BUT YES! WE'VE BROKEN THE EQUATION WIIIIDE OPEN FOLKS! lol