Romance vs. Love Story

[WarpGirl]

That might be the most brilliant thing I've "heard" today!

[Rigil Kent]

Which one has explosions in it? Sign me up for that one.

[WarpGirl]

Well dude that much is obvious, how did Fiona put it, "Nothing turns a woman on more than when something goes BOOM!"

[Cogito]

Which one has explosions in it? Sign me up for that one.

Snigger. I'm sure that's exactly what Malcolm Reed would say!

[WarpGirl]

I'm not convinced Rigil isn't the real Malcolm Reed!

[justTripn]

panyasan and Cogito make good points.

And now for my own shocking confession: I'm not romantic. I'm suspicious of the whole romantic thing where the guy buys the girls a whole heap of prescribed gifts: flowers, jewlrey, dinner, etc. It feels to me like pressure. Like someone is saying, "I played my role, now you play your role." Like they expect a goodnight kiss, or sex, or whatever. It feels like a stupid game that I'm not into. I do realize there is something abnormal about me.

Here is the story of my engagement. It is important to realize that this period was one of the happiest times of my life and I was totally in love. Well, at some point we kind of mutually agreed we would get married and we were living in NY and both working in Manhattan as office temps, but not at the same offices. So one day after work we both went down to the financial district to a jewlrey store. I saw a diamond-looking ring that was actually an aquamarine, which cost only about a hundred dollars. That was the ring I wanted. So T. (now my husband), when he had earned the money, handed me a hundred dollars so I could go and physically pick up the ring after work, because the store was near my work and not his. Then I handed it over to him so that later, at a convient time, we could get engaged. On the day of our planned engagement we arrived at T.'s house we found a houseguest waiting on the doorstep. T. told her, "Sorry, you wait here. I'll be right back. First we have to get engaged." We walked to the end of the street where there was a park, he got down on one knee and proposed with this beautiful speech. I was giggling because it was so cute. So I accepted and I was totally happy with that ring up until the day I lost it down the garbage disposal. Which was fine since it only cost 100 dollars.

So . . . not romantic.

[enterprikayak]

I'm inclined to think that romance and love are opposite sides of the coin.

Romance is all about opportunity and danger and uncertainty and hope. The classic romantic happy ending is that two kindred spirits overcome all the obstacles between them, declare their mutual commitment to each other and the uncertainty ends and all the hopes are realised. And that should be the end of the romance. You can love somebody before, during and after a romantic relationship. But love is not something we should be uncertain about. A healthy long-term loving relationship is IMO about caring and commitment and certainty and trust given and earned. If you have a long-term romantic relationship, with the implications of ongoing danger and uncertainty, I suspect that's actually not a healthy situation to be in.

Peter Cogito, will you marry me?

[Cogito]

Peter Cogito, will you marry me?

Awww.

What a great smiley, I've never seen that before!

I'm not sure whether justTripn's story is romantic but it's certainly sweet - and very logical.

[Distracted]

Here's another shocker for y'all. I am not the romantic in my household. I'm entirely too practical for that. My husband, on the other hand... Well, let's just say he proposed on Valentine's day with his grandmother's ring, okay? I was barely 19 and my parents freaked..."you're much too young... It'll never last... If you get married now you'll never go to med school... Yada, yada, yada." They were wrong. And he still gives me chocolate covered strawberries. : )

[WarpGirl]

eK god do you move fast!

jT I wouldn't say you aren't romantic. My POV on the whole thing is that what brings the "fluffy" "mushy" feelings is different for everyone for me it's just someone remembering that chocolate makes me happy. I tell people I don't need an engagement ring at all, I'd say yes over a candy bar with a post it note. For my mother, the ultimate romantic gesture would be if daddy got her a John Deer tractor. Hardly the traditional trappings of courtship.

Dis I'd say you're far more romantic than I am.

And now for my own shocking confession: I'm not romantic. I'm suspicious of the whole romantic thing where the guy buys the girls a whole heap of prescribed gifts: flowers, jewlrey, dinner, etc.

I gotta say this sums up the point of the whole topic, because all of that, is not love. But it does make for some good reading at times!

[Silverbullet]

After 42 years of marriageI am not sure if we are romantic. We are very good friends. We know what we have to do. I am a morning person and my wife is a night owl. so concessions are made. I don't strart cooking in the morning until 7 A.M. she keeps the TV turned down at night. She is a chattrbox and I am silent sam. I can go hours without saying anything and she hates silence. I turn down my hering aids and she chatters. She claims I deliberately turn the aids off when I want to tune her out. True.

She is a mravelous cook. Likes to make diffent dishes. I am ameat and Potato's man. she saysthat is boring. I get to try new dishes. Found out that there is more than meat and potatos.

We aren't two people living under the same roof we are two peole living togeether and happy as hell aabout it.

Not romantic but think it is the other thing.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Not romantic but think it is the other thing.

SB

ABSOLUTELY! And you are extremely blessed to have that.

[Brandyjane]

That is so awesome, SB! You know, the differences you mention between you and your wife probably give you a lot of insight into Trip and T'Pol: they have so many differences to learn to work around, yet where it really matters, they share the same core values.

This is a great topic, WarpGirl. It got me wondering if it could explain some of the communication problems with TnT. Now obviously they both ultimately want the love story (though T'Pol would certainly put it in other, more logical terms). But getting to the point where they can look back and say, "This is our love story," is the problem.

Trip is very traditional. I can see him wanting to woo her with traditional human means. A lot of the usual trappings wouldn't be available on Enterprise, and especially not in the Expanse. But he makes due with what he's got. For example, he asks her to movie night (a very customary first or early date for human couples!) and he brings her a gift (peaches). Now obviously he's not going to just leave it with romantic gestures, but it's a start for him.

T'Pol, on the other hand, comes from a culture that doesn't need romantic gestures. She's going to just take care of Trip's needs, like she does with neuropressure. If she knows anything about human courtship, she probably knows that dates and presents are no guarantee of permanency. She's going to need a whole lot more from Trip. Trip, however, (even though he knows she's Vulcan and has different responses) is probably looking for T'Pol to respond to his romantic gestures in a favorable way before he gives her the love story and lays his heart out for her. He needs her to act receptive, or, even better, just tell him how she feels since her responses are alien.

Fortunately a bond develops that can show the two how the other really feels and get them together (at least in fan fiction). Without that bond, I don't know if they could have overcome the cultural gap. Heck, even with the bond in place and even with them both knowing it's there, they have trouble swallowing their pride, overcoming their fears, and communicating.

[WarpGirl]

Brandyjane you're back!!!! Glad you like the topic. You know while I agree Trip is pretty traditional, I also think that's balanced by the fact that he's pretty open to what other people need even if those needs aren't his first instinctual response. Like you pointed out, part of the inherent conflict is that T'Pol is less likely to respond to "romantic" gestures without some indication of commitment, and Trip is less likely to offer gestures of commitment without a positive response to romantic gestures. Where Trip made his biggest mistake was that he wasn't willing to take the risk of laying it all out on the line without her positive response.

[Silverbullet]

In Terra Prime and Demons They seemed to be having an intimate relationsip. Trip tells Phlox that she might have got pregnant and not told hm about it. Phlox says "and she had the embryo removed without your knowledge" I think you know the answer to that." Later in the Mine t'Pol says"Trip you think I might have gotten prgnant without yor knowledge."

Both instances suggest strongly they are very intimat on a sexual level. That the possiblity of a pregnancy could exist. In order for that to happpen they must be intimate and to be that intimate for T'Pol, she would be committing herself to him.

As in other episodes this one too was handled stupidly. How could T'Pol be Pregnant and Phlox not know about it. How could she carry a baby to term and the whole crew not knowing about it. After all they were on board Eterprise during the time period. Too much time had elapsed since her seduction of him in the expanse for a pregnacy to have been carried to term.

Anyway, in those episodes it seems to me that thier love has been adckowledged by both of them.

Of course that could be just me being romantic

SB