Why MU T'Pol...

[Transwarp]

I'm starting to wonder if we're all saying the same thing in completely different ways.

Yeah, me too. I can't be sure, but I *think* we're all more or less in agreement, after adjusting for the different definitions we seem to have for our words. Maybe.

You see, as I'm trying to explain (but I understand that it is pretty hard to share) is that we are not at all talking about different people: I repeat, they are identical in all respects.

Here Asso claims they are identical in ALL respects. Then read his very next sentence:

It is indeed true that their behaviour is a consequence of the environment in which they formed, on this I agree with Transwarp.

But their behaviour is different. So clearly the meaning of 'identical' is different to Asso and to me.

When Asso insists RU TnT and MU TnT are identical, I feel like the little boy who lost his dog, and whose parents try to console him by telling him they will get him another dog. But he doesn't want another dog, he wants Spot. They are not the same.

Asso, if RU Trip lost RU T'Pol, would he be consoled if you gave him MU T'Pol? I think not! They are not identical. They are not interchangeable.

I think when Asso says they are the same, he means they have the same potential. That MU TnT could grow and learn and become decent, moral people. I agree that they can; but after they do, they'll STILL be different people. (Not interchangeable.)

And the romantic in Asso seems to believes that no version of TnT in any universe can be less than soul mates. This I can also agree with. I just can't call what we saw on the episode between MU TnT 'love'. It was an attraction of some kind, but it was too self-serving to be love. Could it become love someday? Of course. I agree with Asso that the potential for change is an inherent part of being human. But for all that they change, they will always be uniquely different people. Trip would never want any other T'Pol than his T'Pol, and vice versa.

As for 'universes' versus 'dimensions', that seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. But I'm NOT going to say they're the same!

[WarpGirl]

Okay I get what you're saying now. Do I think MU TnT are interchangable with RU TnT... I honestly have no clue what so ever. I think that if somehow MU Trip died, and RU T'Pol died and somehow MU T'Pol can to the RU and managed to adjust, RU Trip could probably fall for MU T'Pol. And the same could happen if RU Trip died and MU T'Pol died and RU T'Pol ened up in the MU.

Please don't get mad I don't wanna cry.

I still say all that nastiness in deep inside our RU TnT, and all that goodness is in MU TnT. So yeah maybe they could be interchangable...

I hate communicating it's too easy for me to screw up!

[Transwarp]

WG,
I had no trouble at all understanding your post. Not to worry, I am not mad (as in angry). Mad as in the crazy? Perhaps.

I enjoy the give and take here, that's why I keep coming back. I relish a good argument when all parties have open minds and are playing fair. So feel free to write what you wish. Write what you feel. *I* will not take offense.

I hate communicating it's too easy for me to screw up!

Like the rest of us never have that problem?

[WarpGirl]

Like the rest of us never have that problem?

True but I have more issues just trying to talk to people then anyone I know. I get extremely nervous. It doesn't help that Asso and I are in agreement that never happens. It's freaking me out!

[Asso]

I think Asso wants to say that he thinks that people who are here on TriS would be likely to have the opinion that TnT are soulmates, and that those who believe otherwise are more likely to leave this site and go elsewhere.

Thanks, Dis. This is what I meant. You know, I tend to be contorted when I speak in my native language, you can imagine how I can be contorted when I speak in a language that is not mine! Would you be available, my dear Dis, to act as interpreter of thought for me?

I hope that's not the case, though. I hope we're open to all opinions on the subject as long as they don't involve pairing either of them with anybody else.

Absolutely, but I think in this regard, it is extremely important - in the words of Italians - not to keep the foot in both camps. I think that this way of saying it is perfectly clear and that does not require special explanations on my part.

As for what TransWarp says, well, my friend, if you remember I said I was in agreement with you almost on everything, with some slight and subtle difference. In reality it is true that we feel the same way: you, evidently, put more emphasis on behavioural differences (which are not genetically determined), I put more emphasis on the sameness of gene pool. This leads, in my view, to think that actually both Trips and T'Pols possess the same potential
And this, if I understand well, it is also your point of view.

What probably we are in disagreement on (but maybe I'm wrong) is the final conclusion of our common reasoning; for me it is perfectly possible that, given the suitable circumstances and the appropriate adjustments, the 'bad' Trip and T'Pol can (within certain limits) to learn to be 'good'; as well as (again within certain limits) the 'good' Trip and T'Pol can learn to be a little not 'so good'.

Damage to both pairs? Perhaps, but I do not think. I think we should take rather speak of 'enrichment'.

Another conclusion, extreme if you will, of my way of thinking about things, is that actually the two pairs could be used interchangeably.
The potential exists, the gene pool as well, they are not stupid and, in one way or another, they are soulmates.
I do not consider such an eventuality impossible.

Which, among other things, puts me once again in complete agreement with WarpGirl.

Like the rest of us never have that problem?

True but I have more issues just trying to talk to people then anyone I know. I get extremely nervous. It doesn't help that Asso and I are in agreement that never happens. It's freaking me out!

But my dear, if our two couples can be so similar in their diversity, or - if you prefer - so dissimilar in their likeness - why can not you think the same of us?

[WarpGirl]

But my dear, if our two couples can be so similar in their diversity, or - if you prefer - so dissimilar in their likeness - why can not you think the same of us?

This is just weird. Not bad, but it is strange, odd, abnormal, ect... I'm having a hard time processing.

[Transwarp]

Asso,
I think we are nearly in agreement. I concur that MU TnT could become good, and RU TnT 'not so good', as you say. Humans (and Vulcans) are extremely adaptable, after all.

Then you say:

Another conclusion, extreme if you will, of my way of thinking about things, is that actually the two pairs could be used interchangeably.
The potential exists, the gene pool as well, they are not stupid and, in one way or another, they are soulmates.
I do not consider such an eventuality impossible.

To test this hypothesis, I propose a simple thought experiment: Imagine that during a test of an enhancement to the transporter, MU T'Pol is accidentally brought into the RU. Our perplexed but intrepid scientist and engineer quickly determine who MU T'Pol is, and they develop the complex mathematical calculations defining how to send her back. MU T'Pol, once she sees how things are in the RU, is perhaps a little reluctant to return. Alas, while they are still sorting this out, Enterprise is attacked by a ship from a race of unknown, but belligerent aliens, and RU T'Pol is killed in the ensuing action.

Immediately after the battle (where Trip exacts his revenge on the aforementioned ship from the aforementioned race of unknown aliens), is Trip:
A) Nearly inconsolable with grief at the death of his soul mate, or
B) Not upset at all, because MU T'Pol is an interchangeable soul mate.

Notice I said IMMEDIATELY after the battle. I am NOT saying that over time, Trip wouldn't get over his grief and gravitate to a relationship with MU T'Pol. I am NOT saying that eventually RU Trip and MU T'Pol couldn't become soul mates in their own right. I am NOT saying that the potential for great love isn't there.

What I *am* saying is they are NOT interchangeable (unless you picked B as the answer to my thought experiment).

Hope I haven't hopelessly muddied the waters!

[WarpGirl]

Notice I said IMMEDIATELY after the battle.

But nobody who has ever been truly in love could just immediately accept a new love even if that love is for all intents and purposes the same person. Just the shock of loss would prevent that.

The very fact that love could grow between MU Trip RU T'Pol or RU Trip MU T'Pol kind of outright says that they have all the stuff inside of them that draws them to each other.

[Silverbullet]

Didn't the story "all the Pretty Ponies" address just what you are talking about? MU Trip, RU T'Pol. Mu tTrip lost his T'Pol and RU T'Pol lost herTrip. but the two of them hooked up. Unfortunately the story has been dropped seemingly.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Okay whoever invented the term "hooked up" in regard to male female interactions wasn't thinking. Every time I see, hear, or even use that phrase I see my gradfather hitching his boat to his truck. Yeah I know I'm insane.

[Transwarp]

But nobody who has ever been truly in love could just immediately accept a new love...

Hmmm. Your use of the of the phrase 'new love' seems to make the point that RU T'Pol and MU T'Pol are not in fact the same person. Sure, in the event of T'Pol's demise, RU Trip could eventually come to love MU T'Pol, but he could also eventually (maybe years later) come to love someone completely and indisputably different. Like a human woman.

Let me try a different tact: Imagine we are back in the Expanse. Trip is comatose, Sim has reached the age where he has 'caught up' with Trip, and Phlox has developed a procedure that will slow Sim's development to the normal human aging rate. All Sim must do is take a single pill, and he can live a normal human life span. So, do we give Sim the pill and launch comatose Trip out the torpedo tube? Why not? After all, Sim is much, MUCH closer to being the same as Trip, an 'identical in all respects' interchangeable Trip, then MU Trip is to RU Trip. Why *wouldn't* we do this? Aren't they interchangeable? Would T'Pol even mourn his passing? Why would she if she hasn't lost 'her' Trip? Sim IS Trip. There is no difference. Same DNA; even the same memories. They are interchangeable.

Aren't they?

[Cogito]

The very fact that love could grow between MU Trip RU T'Pol or RU Trip MU T'Pol kind of outright says that they have all the stuff inside of them that draws them to each other.

Yes, but that just means that T'Pol and Mu'Pol are similar, it doesn't tell us anything about them being 'the same person' (whatever that means). Just as somebody who falls in love with one of a pair of twins could feasibly have fallen in love with the other one if they had met first. It doesn't mean that the two twins are interchangeable - only that they are similar and may be attracted, and attractive, to similar people.

I've never dated a twin, but since my supply of twin sisters includes an identical pair I've seen it on numerous occasions. It's every bit as amusing as you'd expect, especially when the twins are identical and have a mischievous streak. (On one memorable occasion a would-be suitor couldn't work out which one he was talking to on the phone and spent ten minutes trying to work it out without letting on that he didn't know, only to discover he'd been trying to chat up their Mum. You can probably guess how well that worked out for him. )

[Kotik]

Ouch TW, that's a moral minefield, you've just stumbled into

He might be Trip on a genetic level, but he's still a different being. And I don't think they would hurl Trip out into space while he's comatose rather than dead. And besides, your theory has jolly lot of what-ifs in it

[WarpGirl]

Hmmm. Your use of the of the phrase 'new love' seems to make the point that RU T'Pol and MU T'Pol are not in fact the same person.

GOOD-GOLLY MISS MOLLY! Why do I think you're messing with me now? Okay... No Trip couldn't accept MU T'Pol immediately because he'd be in too much shock of losing RU T'Pol. People must grieve. That doesn't mean MU T'Pol doesn't have everything that RU T'Pol had that Trip loved. She does. He'd just need time to adjust.

As for Sim, well if they had found a way to let him live the ethical thing to do would be to pull the plug on Trip (he was brain dead) and after T'Pol had time to adjust, they'd work out just as well as her and the original Trip. Provided they weren't completely moronic like they were in the show.

Yes, but that just means that T'Pol and Mu'Pol are similar, it doesn't tell us anything about them being 'the same person' (whatever that means). Just as somebody who falls in love with one of a pair of twins could feasibly have fallen in love with the other one if they had met first. It doesn't mean that the two twins are interchangeable - only that they are similar and may be attracted, and attractive, to similar people.

I don't think twins actually work in this instence. Even Identical twins can have completely different personalities. One can be outgoing the other shy. That doesn't work with either Sim or MU TnT.

[Cogito]

I don't think twins actually work in this instence. Even Identical twins can have completely different personalities. One can be outgoing the other shy. That doesn't work with either Sim or MU TnT.

Huh??? Isn't this exactly the point you've been making?