Why MU T'Pol...

[Asso]

Damn! That's perfect. I mean...Panyasan, you, just with few words, have achieved two aims: First, you wrote a damn nice drabble. Second, you - intentionally or not - demonstrated my assumption.
It spreads into your writing, maybe almost unnoticeable. But it there is.

[panyasan]

Boy are they in trouble.

Of course I am referring to the MU Reed and his cohorts.

I totally agree! The RU TnT may help MU Tucker with MU Reed and with dealing with his (MU) T'Pol. You never know.

[Asso]

Boy are they in trouble.

Of course I am referring to the MU Reed and his cohorts.

I totally agree! The RU TnT may help MU Tucker with MU Reed and with dealing with his (MU) T'Pol. You never know.

Do it! Do it! Please!

[WarpGirl]

I think everyone is in trouble!

[Silverbullet]

Better send RU TnT back. MU tucker may like RU T'Pol better and decide RU Tucker is in the way so......

SB

[Distracted]

I don't think he'd like her better. I think he'd think she was weak...and stupid if she showed any concern or mercy for him. He wouldn't understand her motivations and he wouldn't trust her. He'd think she was trying to manipulate him even if she was completely honest with him. She'd probably end up dead because she'd want to get away from him and try to get back to the RU and I don't think she'd be conniving enough to do it. MU Trip belongs with MU T'Pol. They're a match, and they deserve each other.

[Cogito]

I think so too.

And yet. Two people who trust each other completely, and know each other well enough to work well together as a team, have the potential to be extraordinarily effective against a group of people who don't like or trust each other. Could they do it? Could they live long and prosper, in the MU?

[Distracted]

It's an interesting question. Could RU TnT survive in the MU? Would it be possible for someone to survive in that universe without becoming one of them? I'm not at all sure.

I think their best chance would be to get off the ship, find a deserted planet somewhere, and start over. Unfortunately, two people aren't enough to found a colony, and everyone else in the MU would be more likely to betray them than to found a colony with them. So I'm going to have to conclude that unless they were capable of turning into the kind of people who can function in the dog-eat-dog environment of the MU, RU TnT wouldn't last very long. Maybe if they ran to Vulcan they might be able to find a group of people who weren't as bloodthirsty as all the humans in the MU seemed to be. Then maybe TnT might survive without having to turn into merciless monsters like everyone else in the MU.

[Silverbullet]

Still say it is better if they can get back to the RU. Maybe Trip and T'Pol can trick MU Tucker in to doing it or MU Malcolm might not want them around. Two sets of TnT might be too much for him. whatever, best to return to the RU than live in that meat grinder called the MU.

As usual, it is my bedtime.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Do I think RU TnT can survive in the MU? Depends, it would definitely be a situation where following all of the RU rules is not going to work. They'll both have to accept doing some in the words of the great Jack O'Neill...

Some damned distasteful things

in order to survive. BUT they've already faced some of the ugliness of survival in the Delphic expanse. So I think they could adjust in a lot of ways. Would it keep them alive? I'm not sure.

A far more interesting question would be if MU TnT could adjust to the RU. And personally, I think that they'd both desperately want too, but they'd still be extremely damaged.

See this is exactly why I say they're the same.

[Transwarp]

WG, you make two points, both of which I completely agree with:

1- RU TnT *might* survive in the MU,if they found themselves there, but they'd have to do 'some damned distasteful things' in the process.
2- MU TnT would desperately want too adjust to the RU, if they found themselves here, but they'd still be extremely damaged.

But your conclusion leaves me baffled. You say it shows MU and RU TnT are exactly the same, while I see it proves the exact opposite.

Do we have the same definition of 'the same'? By your own thesis, MU TnT would have trouble adapting to the RU, an environment where RU TnT are right at home. How does this mean they are the same? And RU TnT would be equally floundering in the MU. Each pair is incompatible with the other's environment. This would seem to prove they are *not* the same. (If they were 'the same,' wouldn't they respond identically to different environments? To my way of thinking, that's what 'the same' means.)

Now, if you mean to say that if their bodies were swapped at birth, then the end result would be the same, I can agree to that. It just means they have identical DNA.

But no two individuals can be 'the same' unless they have the same bodies (DNA) *and* the same memories. Even Sim was not the same as Trip: Although he had all of Trip's memories (and we won't go into the impossibility of THAT), he also had additional memories of being raised by Phlox which Trip did not share, and those additional memories were sufficient to make him a different person.

Huh. I was trying to insert the 'Beating a dead horse' smiley here, but it doesn't seem to be working...

[panyasan]

I find it highly amusing that you all start discussing my story and what might happen if RU meets MU.
I think I go with that people in the MU and RU are not alike, but wouldn't it be interesting if you could have a discussion with your counterpart in another universe?
As for the suggestions: of course I am not going to tell you what that plot is.

[WarpGirl]

My point is that everything that makes up who TnT are regardless of them being born in the RU or the MU would allow them to be one or the other. So they're "the same." But truthfully at this point I'm confusing myself. So I'm pretty sure people are going to start getting mad at me.

[Asso]

WG, you make two points, both of which I completely agree with:

1- RU TnT *might* survive in the MU,if they found themselves there, but they'd have to do 'some damned distasteful things' in the process.
2- MU TnT would desperately want too adjust to the RU, if they found themselves here, but they'd still be extremely damaged.

But your conclusion leaves me baffled. You say it shows MU and RU TnT are exactly the same, while I see it proves the exact opposite.

Do we have the same definition of 'the same'? By your own thesis, MU TnT would have trouble adapting to the RU, an environment where RU TnT are right at home. How does this mean they are the same? And RU TnT would be equally floundering in the MU. Each pair is incompatible with the other's environment. This would seem to prove they are *not* the same. (If they were 'the same,' wouldn't they respond identically to different environments? To my way of thinking, that's what 'the same' means.)

Now, if you mean to say that if their bodies were swapped at birth, then the end result would be the same, I can agree to that. It just means they have identical DNA.

But no two individuals can be 'the same' unless they have the same bodies (DNA) *and* the same memories. Even Sim was not the same as Trip: Although he had all of Trip's memories (and we won't go into the impossibility of THAT), he also had additional memories of being raised by Phlox which Trip did not share, and those additional memories were sufficient to make him a different person.

Huh. I was trying to insert the 'Beating a dead horse' smiley here, but it doesn't seem to be working...

My dear friend, I could be almost totally agree with you except that, again, we're talking about a comic-opera universe, whose general idea and departure was to take the same - identical - personages of the 'good' Real Universe and show of them their own - so to speak - dark sides.

The people we're talking about are not other people: they are the same, born elsewhere.
This, I believe, is the overriding assumption from which we must begin.
And when I say identical, I just want to say identical, up to the smallest cell, up to the infinitesimal brick constitutive of their bodies.

If this is so, it is clear that these dark sides are, with all due respect to all of us, the exact same dark sides that our dear friends have - just like that, they have - even in the Real Universe. On the other hand this is perfectly logical to say it with T'Pol: in fact a little superficial and one-dimensional, in the story we saw on the screen, it even is the so-called Real Universe, to tell the truth.
There cannot be an universe where our characters are just made of light; a bit of darkness, to be honest, there must be. Of course, the evil peeps, sometimes, in this real universe, but practically never in our friends, and this frankly is not credible.
Well, obviously I'd rather not discuss here the 'dark sides' of Archer-yes, better not talk about it.

Anyway, what do I want to mean? I mean that Trip and T'Pol - the real ones, so to speak - can't not be ‘equipped’ for the harsh struggles of the Mirror Universe, struggles, even bad, that it is impossible they haven't incurred even in the world in which they live. If not ... well ... poor them!
The logical (logical, again, right T'Pol? ) result of this reasoning is that our two 'real' Trip and T'Pol would find horrible MU, that's sure, but they would know to find ways to adapt themselves to it, or - better - to adapt it to them. Why? But because they were born and lived in a multi-faceted and polyvalent universe, not the absurd and one-way universe that seems to be MU. Their opportunities and their means are – inevitably - many more and much more effective than those of the 'bad' Trip and T'Pol.

And these ones? How would things go for them? Well, let's not forget that they are, ultimately, Trip and T'Pol; they were born and have lived in that idiotic MU, but – as I said - they are the same Trip and T’Pol who exist in RU, and thinking that they would not be able to adapt and live in a better world ... But sorry, are we talking about people with brain, or about stupid larvae without a shadow of intelligence?

Now, you surely will tell me, maybe all this is true, but ... but ... the question of the influence exerted by the environment and the personal experience is real; on this, it is not raining there.
Right, right, and certainly nothing can be argued against what Transwarp said about Sim: a clone of Trip, but certainly not Trip. (Incidentally, there is much to say on this subject, but this is not the time nor the place).

By the way, thank you Transwarp, immensely. Masterfully and with a few good arguments, you gave breath to my horns. I found myself quite a few times in the combat against the absurdity that T'Pol might concede herself to Sim - a lot or very little. If it were so, we should support the idea that T'Pol is anything but the T'Pol we love and respect, and - about that matter - please ... let me this illusion, or - better - this certainty. We are talking of T'Pol, not of a cheerful coquette.

But back to the last question, namely the influence of the environment and personal experience.
Excuse me, my friends, but could you really not believe that all around you, mixed with you, there may be people born in totally different environments, with a totally different 'imprinting', who have been able to conceal and to fit in - perfectly - in the new environment?
These are things on the agenda.
Unless we do not want to believe that our world - the one true, real - is a world of operetta, just as MU.

[Silverbullet]

Again I believe the the story Dr. Jeykle and Mr. Hyde outlined it perfectly. We all have that dark side in us. If released would horrify us. Historically that has been born out. People who under normal circumstances would not do the things they did under abnormal circumstances.

so, MU TnT will do dark things that the RU TnT wouldn't.

Hyde could exist in Jeykle's world but could not adapt to it. He would always be Hyde and always have Hydes drives.

RU TnT would always be the way tey were in the RU world and MU TnT would always be as they were in the MU Universe even if each were to be thrown into the others Universe. They could exist but not change who or what they are. Ineveitably their own universe personality would betray them in another Universe.

SB