How Would You Write Characters Who Don't Get Along With TnT?

[WarpGirl]

There are two terms in fanfic that strike dread into every writer they are: Mary-Sue, and Gary-Stu. Let's face it anyone who writes is absolutely terrified of writing any character into those two dreaded modes. And one of the worst ways to do it is when every "non-villian" character, ends up loving the main hero/ine.

Now granted our dynamic duo have enough personal fobiles and quirks to keep them grounded out of sue/stuville but it's sometimes fun to shake things up. Maybe a writer doesn't want to focus on messy personal flaws, and quirks in a story. So another way to create some drama is to add in some characters to shake things up. So how would you do it?

What kind of people who are not villians, or bad people in general, would just not mesh with our dynamic duo?

[Distracted]

I'm thinking that any character who accepts the stereotypes about Vulcans or Southerners might dislike TnT.

Someone who prefers suave, smooth talking, refined men instead of good ol' boys might dislike Trip on sight just as soon as she/he hears the southern accent, especially if she/he's heard the rumors about the boy getting promoted to chief engineer on a starship without even a college degree. Another engineer who's not as gifted might be jealous of him and dislike him for that reason. A Terra Prime sympathiser who's heard rumors about him sleeping with alien women might dislike him for that reason. A less attractive human woman who secretly wonders what all the alien bimbos have that she hasn't got might convince herself that he's a man slut and dislike him for that reason.

As far as T'Pol goes, any Terra Prime sympathiser would probably dislike Vulcans on principle. A Vulcan who's heard about her role in the P'Jem incident might dislike her for that reason, or they might consider her shamefully over-emotional and dislike her because of that. On the other hand, what remains of her Vulcan unemotionalism would grate on the nerves of anyone who believes in openly expressing their emotions. And T'Pol did seem arrogant at times, especially in season one. A senior scientist whose specialty is astrophysics could easily be rubbed the wrong way by her assumption that she knows more than they do, even if that assumption is correct. It's not like T'Pol is going to have any skill with humoring people. Think Temperance on "Bones", and that's how I envison T'Pol would deal with someone like that. If she knows more than they do she's not going to spare their feelings.

[Transwarp]

What kind of people who are not villains, or bad people in general, would just not mesh with our dynamic duo?

@**holes?

Characters who don't like your hero/ines are usually in the story as a source of conflict. That is typically the bad guy's job, I suppose, but you specified someone *other* than the villains.

Putting on my writer's hat, here is the question you should ask yourself: Does this develop the main characters or advance the plot? If the answer is no, then you might want to re-examine the concept.

Taking OFF my writer's hat, I recognize that sometimes (especially in fan fiction) it's enough just to have a 'cool' scene. A scene that reveals something about TnT that we didn't know before. Or shows us some new aspect of their society or culture. It may not advance the plot, but it's just NEAT. I've read plenty of TnT fan fiction with those kinds of scenes, and the writers get away with it because they have a particular audience: If we didn't already love TnT and want to know more about them, we wouldn't be reading the fan fic.

I've even tried to write scenes like that, although I'll leave it to the readers to decide if they rose to the level of 'neat'.

[WarpGirl]

Think Temperance on "Bones", and that's how I envison T'Pol would deal with someone like that. If she knows more than they do she's not going to spare their feelings.

Oh Dis you know how to make me smile. Although I think after Thursday's episode they all but said straight out that Tempe's on the Asburgers scale.

That said I can see how in season 1 T'Pol wouldn't understand why someone would be so offended by a truthful statement if she was a better more intelligent scientist. Unlike Tempe however, T'Pol will be able to modify her behavior to make things more tactful. I honestly think Tempe will never understand why people will assume she's heartless and arrogent because she can't be any other way.

Someone who prefers suave, smooth talking, refined men instead of good ol' boys might dislike Trip on sight

WOW! You know I swear when I watch Trip I do not see stereotypical "good ol' boy" I see what someone from LA might think a "good ol' boy" might be. But hey you would know better than me you're deeper in the South than me, and I'm just a transplant.

I was worried about starting this topic and we haven't had a big TnT discussion in forever. I'm terrified of this plcace becoming like my KOTOR site. Please No!

Transwarp how did I know you'd say something like this?

@**holes?

Characters who don't like your hero/ines are usually in the story as a source of conflict. That is typically the bad guy's job, I suppose, but you specified someone *other* than the villains.

Okay now since I'm not entirely convinced you're not Clive Cusslar masquerading as a cool fanfic guy I'm slightly nervous answering this. So putting on MY authors hat here's my personal theory... Truly great stories have two functions that must work harmoniously:

1. Plot advancement! Absolutely the plot is of paramount importance it must keep moving forward and be engaging to a reader. You don't want to bore anyone or go too slow. (And yes I'm guilty of going too slow)

2. Character Development! To me this has always been of even more import than the plot advancement. I have read wonderful stories (both in fanfic and mainstream litature) where the plot was amazing and the character development left me cold. And at the end of them I feel cheated and empty. Because as wonderful as the events were I cared nothing for the people.

That's why I was so specific in discussing characters who are not villians in this topic. Because while I agree that conflict should drive plot I also believe it is VITAL for it to drive character development as well.

[Distracted]

A good story also often shows a change in the main character from the beginning to the end... maturation, coming of age, a change of heart, that sort of thing... so if your OC is a main POV character you could start the story with him/her disliking TnT and show the character gradually coming to respect or even like them at the end. One of the problems with fanfiction is that the established characters really can't change much and still remain the characters the readers expect, so fanfics rarely use the "character change" plot device. You could get around that as a writer by having the OC change instead, probably just as a side plot to the main action if you want to keep the TnTers' attention.

[WarpGirl]

See I've never really believed that a main character must "change" in order to develop. I mean real people go through events through their live and yes some things change them on fundemental levels and change their perspectives and outlooks. But those events aren't constant. We spend a lot of time in our lives just being our same old selves.

However, one of the things I've always loved about fanfic is that you can pick a certain aspect of a character's personality and bring it to the fore-front in a story the way it never was in the show. I know you weren't too keen of my last drabble Dis, but I admit one of the things that really struck me in season 3, was the fact that there is a dark part of Trip that can hate, and quite strongly if he feels he is justified in his hatred. Now in the show it was pretty sporadically covered and very hastily resolved. After all, it is Trek. Now I find stuff like that cool to explore. But some don't and I get that. But I never thought of exploring those types of things as "changing the character".

And I think an OC who doesn't mesh with TnT can bring things that weren't really explored about TnT's personalities (good or bad) in depth on the show, out in a story. Therefore driving character development. Jeeze I almost sound like I know what I'm saying!

[Distracted]

All that is certainly true for ordinary fiction, but in my experience if you try to play around with negative or even slightly dark characterizations of main characters in ST fandom you're going to get complaints that your characterization is wrong or OOC. Trekkers don't tolerate negative portrayals of the characters they love. My suggestion to you if you plan to do that is to set your story in the MU. You'll get fewer complaints that way. JMO.

[WarpGirl]

I'm not really planning on going to the "Dark Side" at least I don't think I am. However I firmly believe in the phraze that it is, "A lady's perogitive to change her mind." That said I write to please myself first. I appreciate criticism always but I realize that not everyone is going to see things the way I do. I'm glad it's that way. If all I read in fic were people that had visions close to my own, I don't think I'd read fanfic at all! At least if people complain I know that they're reading.

Anyway, there could be OC's who don't get along with TnT because of their good traits as well. Goodness knows I don't get along with perfectly decent people all the time, and they think that the things I believe are good traits are awful. People are wonderfully complex, messy and unpredictable creatures.

There's a song that goes, "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy" I whole-heartedly concur vehemently! Oh great now I'm going to start fantasizing about Billy Currington again.

[panyasan]

Interesting question. If I understand you correctly, you want to know how to write characters, but not villians.
I see any Terra Prime nember as sort of villians, but there can be people who have difficulties with Trip and/or T'Pol for several reasons.
For example, I am writing a story in which Amanda Cole and T'Pol are forced to investigate something together. Circumstances have made them team up. They don't like each other for several reasons, but I like to give both a background story and motives to understand them. You may not like Cole, but I hope readers can understand what makes her tick.
I think one of the biggest compliments I ever got was about Raiijn in Malice. I truly dislike her a lot, but the reviewer said she didn't come off likealbe, but you understood more why she was doing things.

[WarpGirl]

Oh the point of this whole thing was to start some sort of TnT discussion. We haven't had a really good one in quite a while. Been too busy at the drabbles I guess. So I was thinking about TnT and people they just would not get along with who were not villians. And then I thought, well how would other people approach this in their work. And BINGO new topic! To tell the truth I was kind of inspired by Rodney McCay of Stargate, who although loved, never gets along with anyone.

I was also inspired by the episode Canamar and Trip's dislike of Zoumas. So I'm guessing neither Trip or T'Pol would get along with someone like that.

PS that Rajin fic was just sheer brilliance in massive action.

[Silverbullet]

They might not get along with Kelby or the Orion females. Though the Orioons were villans of a sort. Archer sure got along with them. Koss. He wasn't a villan but I am sure that Trip wouldn't number him high on his list of pals. T'Pol neither. Not sure about Shran. Degra. Villian but good guy later. Trip hated him and then relented when he found out that Degra was trying to help and got murdered for it.

A Few suggestions

SB

[WarpGirl]

Well we know almost nothing of Koss as a person. Because of that, I'm one of those people that can cheerfully accept TnT never getting along with him ever, or becoming quite good friends. Personally, in my own work I'm going the friends route. It's different from the norm.

As for TnT and Degra, I was massively disappointed with the way they handled that whole issue. As good a man as Trip is, I found the about face in his attitude totally OOC and unrealistic. And yeah I regard Degra as a villian. Sorry.

Shran??? Who couldn't like Shran??? Even Soval came around with him.

[Asso]

I am displeased, I know this is an issue discussed and debated several times and it's evident that about this matter people appear to be stuck in their opinions; but I am unable to understand why it's perceived as necessary finding some honourable motivation - more or less hidden - behind Koss' behaviour. Perhaps he wasn't a villain, but certainly he was a dislikeable profiteer. And, on the other hand, this was his function on the show; he had to bring angst. For the remaining, he was totally useless.

It's clear that, as far I can understand, this is one of the circumstances about which perceptions of women and perceptions of males tend to diverge, at least thus it seems to me.
I noticed that many females are inclined to justify Koss in some way (mh: is it possible that females are in love with angst? Love angst, I mean, that is often absolutely gratuitous. Please, do not skin me, my sweet ladies!); whereas men - the most part - would be pleased to poke Koss in the eye. Well, surely I would have wanted to strangle Koss (but, even if with infinitely more sweetness, also T'Pol would have deserved some pressure to her throat; and it is better I say nothing about what I would have done with T'Less. Trip: eh, as not infrequently he was a little stupid, do not you think? But also noble-minded and supportive, which saves him and seems also to be his meagre destiny, damnit! Always giving and never have. Is it again angst, by chance? A little gratuitous, one more time, by chance?)

But now, I think it is futile repeating things that were said so many times. And forgive me, Warpgirl, if I was a little out topic.

[WarpGirl]

Asso you're back??? Well, you are off topic however... I can't speak for all ladies, (nor would I be stupid enough to try) but I think we all have our own preferences as to what is "gratuitous angst" and what is not. For me the Trellium D was completely worthless angst. It added nothing to the characters and was just annoying. A lot of people don't agree, and they're perfectly entitled to think so. On the other hand, I thought Koss and the marriage was perfectly acceptable angst that had real vaule in the story and TnT's relationship. Other people don't, that's fine too.

I've already said that I can accept him as a black-hearted villian, if written well. I can also accept him as a decent man stuck in an awful situation, if that is written well. We shouldn't criticize each other for our personal tastes.

Back on topic, it's completely out of the realm of possibility that TnT will get along with every "non-villian" they meet. Has anyone ever gotten along with every person they ever met? If you're out there tell me how you did it please!

[Distracted]

It's been my experience that although it's probably impossible to develop close personal friendships with everyone I meet (and honestly I wouldn't want to), it is possible to peacefully co-exist with just about anyone unless they're the type of person who deliberately decides to dislike me on sight. And even those people I can generally deal with by making a decided effort to be pleasant with them when I must encounter them, compliment them when possible even when I'd rather not bother, and ignore them when they try to push my buttons.

An argument requires two people. You can refuse to engage. Some people find it impossible to let go when someone challenges them, though. It's a personality issue, I think. Some people are born negotiators. Others are born fighters. Two negotiators will always get along even if they secretly hate each others guts. Two fighters, not so much. Historically, men have been the fighters and women the negotiators, but every individual is different. A fighter sees all others as potential opponents. A negotiator sees all others as potential allies. It's like the glass half-full vs the glass half-empty dichotomy, IMO. It all depends on your point of view.