Trippin’ With “Older T’Pol"

[Silverbullet]

JT, you told me you wanted to write again. so, YOU write that missing scene. You seem to have it plotted out in your mind.

[Alelou]

Mmm, he has a point.

I still have to figure how to get through the episodes before that. E2 is an oasis in the distance for me at this point.

[Alelou]

Double post but I'm changing the topic a little. In trying to plot the relationship between these two after Harbinger, I am really flummoxed by this little scene in E2:

TUCKER: (sitting down in front of her) Look, truth is I'm sleeping fine. I ain't come for neuro-pressure, I came because I'm worried about you.
T'POL: Worried?
TUCKER: You've been keeping to yourself a lot lately, even more than usual. You spend every free moment in your quarters, you even asked Chef to bring your meals here.
T'POL: The Mess hall's heavily damaged. Where do you suggest I eat?
TUCKER: Come on, you've got to admit you've been avoiding me ever since the two of us, you know, when we
T'POL: Had sexual relations.
TUCKER: That's real romantic when you put it that way.
T'POL: I told you, what happened was an exploration, not the prelude to an intimate relationship.
TUCKER: I never said I wanted a relationship.
T'POL: Neither did I.
TUCKER: You helped me get through a rough patch, and I'm grateful. I just stopped by to see if I could return the favour.
T'POL: I appreciate your concern, but I'm fine.

Yet despite what Tucker describes as her avoiding him, between "Harbinger" and this they've shown no particular signs of issues in "Doctor's Orders," worked together well (still using neuro-pressure as an apparent routine) in "Hatchery," looked out for each other (granted, with some tension) in "Azati Prime" and "Damage," and had two really sweet encounters in "The Forgotten."

Honestly, I'm wondering if they need to have more, later sex for this to make sense, except that then her bringing up the infamous "exploration" dodge again wouldn't make sense.

Gah.

[AllisonPetra]

So glad to be home! Really good posts - and posits too. Well, now I really, really think Trip did see older T’Pol.

In the deleted scene (still looking for the link) when Lorian tells Trip he doesn’t think they should talk about the future, Trip understands that, but then asks Lorian to tell him about his mother. Saying basically tell me how we got together. Doesn’t that say, even if deleted, it was at one point part of the story – I’m assuming that would have led somewhere! As Chief Engineer, in that particular story line, he had to know she was on board. He’s third in command (right?). If he did not know, he should have. Also all the crew was searching for their family lines, wouldn’t Trip do that too?

At the start of the E2 episode, Trip went to younger T’Pol’s quarters to check on her because he was worried about her. He could see she was not as fine as she insisted. Wasn’t that what his tongue poking at his cheek (which I just loved) was all about? I think he would want to ask older T’Pol for advice even just on how to help younger T’Pol. His feelings for her would have compelled him. Trip is a caring guy, he can’t help himself. Remember how he went all out to help the Cogenitor – someone he felt needed help. Perhaps “its” suicide might have stopped him from doing that in the future but he knew T’Pol (I’m still not sure he deserved all the blame for what happened to the Cogenitor, it was Captain Archer who refused to help and sent “it” back).

Now, I think he would anticipate that older T’Pol would find meeting him awkward. He would want her to feel at ease, to know that she was remembered as she was – young and hot. I envision his going to her quarters one night – and ringing the bell. She would sense it was him, cause she must have had a bond with the E2 Trip, and it’s still Trip. Feeling awkward, she would hesitate to let him in. Feeling that he was already intruding, he would not (or maybe could not) override the security lock.

As he begins to walk away, the door would open. She might feel awkward, but that is still Trip and she still loves him. The room would be lit by candles only – to hide the goddawful makeup – okay maybe just one candle. He would be illuminated by the candle light (kinda like the House of Tucker picture) so she could see his face and those eyes. He would only be able to see her in silhouette, and trying to respect her wishes, he would speak to her without adding anymore light.

Trip would share with her that he had been sad/hurt that young T’Pol saw him only as an experiment. That he knew in his heart there was more there, but she would not admit it. He would tell older T’Pol that he had to come to see her because it gave him peace/hope to know that, in some universe, the woman he loved – also loved him.

At this point older T’Pol, feeling all those trellium enhanced emotions, would tell him how much she did love him and she could not see her life without having married E2 Trip. That losing E2 Trip was so painful, but hearing him confess his love for her (i.e., younger T’Pol) again filled her heart with joy.

Trip would give her that smile, that I also love, and she would reach out her gnarled hand, from the silhouette, to touch him. As it came into the light, he would take her hand in his, maybe even kiss it, and she would – because she is a touch telepath, revel in the feelings and the passion that Trip carries in him for her younger self. As a result of this clandestine meeting I think older T’Pol then told younger T’Pol to trust Trip and follow her heart. Doesn’t that just feel right?

Alelou. Yes, I have been reading the Missing Scenes. The concept is perfect. As I read them, I sometimes go back to the episodes to refresh the whole context for the missing scene. They are great and I can’t wait to see what is done with this question.

[Rigil Kent]

Plus, as T'Pold states, such a meeting would be awkward because I'd like to think that Trip is observant enough to realize something is all screwed up about T'Pol (the trellium) and would want to know what was going on. And canon T'Pol (regardless of age) does not like to admit her mistakes, so admitting that? Awkward is a very good word for it.

There is no canon indication that T'Pol continued to abuse trellium in the E2 universe. The past abuse has apparently had a permanent effect (as she tells her younger self), but T'Pol seems very poised in the episode E2. I don't think the effects of the abuse are evident to anyone but herself.

Uh ... I was not talking about T'Pold continuing to abuse the trellium. I was referencing Trip's T'Pol abusing the trellium prior to the events of E2 and Trip's lack of knowledge/understanding of this fact. Specifically, if he did encounter T'Pold, I'd expect one of his very first questions to be "what the hell is wrong with your younger counterpart? Why does she run so hot and cold?" And this would naturally be "awkward" to T'Pold because she would have to acknowledge (at least to herself) that a large part of the reason her younger counterpart was so erratic was due to the trellium. And the pa'nar (which canonically, Trip knows nothing about.) And the three mind rapes we have on record (Tolaris, Sillick, Rajiin.)

[Alelou]

Hey AllisonPetra -- you've thought that out all so vividly -- maybe it's time for you to try your hand at writing it.

Glad you're enjoying mine in the meantime.

[justTripn]

Double post but I'm changing the topic a little. In trying to plot the relationship between these two after Harbinger, I am really flummoxed by this little scene in E2:

TUCKER: (sitting down in front of her) Look, truth is I'm sleeping fine. I ain't come for neuro-pressure, I came because I'm worried about you.
T'POL: Worried?
TUCKER: You've been keeping to yourself a lot lately, even more than usual. You spend every free moment in your quarters, you even asked Chef to bring your meals here.
T'POL: The Mess hall's heavily damaged. Where do you suggest I eat?
TUCKER: Come on, you've got to admit you've been avoiding me ever since the two of us, you know, when we
T'POL: Had sexual relations.
TUCKER: That's real romantic when you put it that way.
T'POL: I told you, what happened was an exploration, not the prelude to an intimate relationship.
TUCKER: I never said I wanted a relationship.
T'POL: Neither did I.
TUCKER: You helped me get through a rough patch, and I'm grateful. I just stopped by to see if I could return the favour.
T'POL: I appreciate your concern, but I'm fine.

Yet despite what Tucker describes as her avoiding him, between "Harbinger" and this they've shown no particular signs of issues in "Doctor's Orders," worked together well (still using neuro-pressure as an apparent routine) in "Hatchery," looked out for each other (granted, with some tension) in "Azati Prime" and "Damage," and had two really sweet encounters in "The Forgotten."

Honestly, I'm wondering if they need to have more, later sex for this to make sense, except that then her bringing up the infamous "exploration" dodge again wouldn't make sense.

Gah.

OOOoooo! OOOOooo! I got it. I'm PMing you now.

[Enerdhil]

I am still on the opinion that T'Pol used the 'exploration' as an excuse to relieve Trip of being (apparently, because of his difficulty to address the subject) guilty (of having sex with her - a fellow officer), calling all the guilt to herself - didn't work, of course...

[Alelou]

I kind of doubt that T'Pol would expect Trip to be feeling guilty about having sex. She thinks that's just normal operating procedure for these randy Humans. Even for herself, I suspect it would be the lack of self-control she'd feel bad about, rather than the act itself. She doesn't strike me as particularly moralistic about the topic.

[Silverbullet]

I have imagned a scene where the Young T'Pol takes Trip to see the OLd T'Pol after her first visit with the Older one.

The Old T'Pol asks if she can borrow the young T'Pol's Trip for aminute. Young T'Pol says he is not hers and the Old one says yes he is. Trip goes to the old one she embraces him and then says "You can have him back now" and T'Po(younger) says he is not mine. Old one ssys he is but you wont admit it.

[Thot]

worked together well (still using neuro-pressure as an apparent routine) in "Hatchery,"

Objection!

Although it isn't said to 100% certainty, the following lines in the first scene in E² don't make any sense, if they had continued the neuro-pressure treatments:

T'POL: You're here for neuro-pressure.
TUCKER: It's been weeks since our last session.

And Trip's excuse of neuro-pressure to get into T'Pol's quarters in 'Hatchery' can be easily explained: It's the episode directly after Harbringer. Therefore ending the sessions could have been so recently that nobody outside noticed it until then. Let alone that there's the possibilty that they haven't decided consciously to end it, but let other things easily distract them from it.

Concering the dead horse of the discussion 'they had sex until "Home" and/or between "Bound" and "Demons"': I don't know if you guys in America know this expression, but here in Germany they attribute a proverb to the Dakota-Indians, which says: If you are ridding a dead horse, dismount! (I hope I have translated it correctly.)

Instead when we concentrate on the idea of canon friendly missing-scenes, we always have to remember the following lines in "Home":

T'LES: Have you informed T'Pol?
TUCKER: Informed her of what?
T'LES: You're in love with her. Vulcans may not express their emotions, but we are sensitive to them.
TUCKER: I don't think I knew it until we were standing over that lava field and she told me she was going to marry Koss. That's when it hit me. I was going to lose her. I wanted to tell her right there, but I couldn't.

Trip doesn't realize to love T'Pol until they are on Vulcan. Therefore, NO confessions of love towards T'Pol or about her to somebody else, since it would bluntly contradict the line " I don't think I knew it until we were standing over that lava field..." Or you would have to include one hell of an explanation into the missing scene.

That's the challenge somebody has to face, if he or she wants to write canon friendly in this aspect.

If we are already at the 'Imagine-your-favourite-Older-T'Pol-and-younger-Trip'-scene, then something along the lines of this would be mine:
Old T'Pol calls Archer and asks him to fulfil her a last wish to see Trip one more time without him noticing it - she doesn't want to burden him... you name it. In addition, it could be an effort where the rest of the crew jumps on the bandwagon to fulfil her this one last wish, whereby young Trip is the only one unaware of it (if young T'Pol notices it, would be a free option). At least it would cement a possible 'everybody knew it before them' attitude on the ship.

[Silverbullet]

I like the idea of the Old T'Pol and the young Trip meeting but would want it to be desired by both of them. Still like the idea of the young T'Pol taking Trip to see the Old T'Pol. somehow I always thought that the scene ended a bit too soon. The old T'Pol merely saying that "It will, it will" Since the Old t'Pol had married her Trip she would know that the young T'pol does know what her Heart wants. Says so to the young one. which is why th eYoung T'Pol takes Trip to see the old one so he can tell her that they are not a couple and may not be one.

In the episode the Young T'Pol says "Just because our counterparts married doesn't mean we will." or osmething like that. She might wnat Trip to tell the Old one whatthe Young one had said so the Old T'Pol would believe it coming from him.

[Alelou]

Actually, at the end of "Harbinger" he specifically says they don't have to stop neuro-pressure, and "Hatchery" is two episodes later, not one. But yes, that could still be an explanation. Still, what bothers me the most about that scene is that we've had them eating together and her comforting him about his sister in "The Forgotten" -- presumably not long before this-- and that is hardly avoiding him. I guess I have to pull out the date stamps to get a clearer sense of the timeline.

(When I did that with "Harbinger" -- literally looking up what day of the week Dec. 27, 2153 was (Thursday) -- it became obvious the action had to stretch over practically an entire week, because of the training schedule we're told about (Tuesdays and Fridays in the evenings and Wednesdays in the morning, though that latter one was a little fuzzy). It also appears that the episode just completely ignores the holiday of New Year's Eve.)

And just because he hasn't "realized" he loves her doesn't mean they're not having sex, though I agree it lowers the probability a bit. My most generous interpretation of that line (on Trip's behalf) is that T'Pol has been so maddeningly confusing to deal with that he's been holding back emotionally to protect himself, and perhaps also because he thinks that's what she wants.

[Silverbullet]

For sure the writers had a chance to do more with the scene between the Olld T'Pol and the Young one. I still wonder if the Old Enterprise which had been thrown back in time had gone through exactly what the New (our) Enterprise had gone through. If so then the Old T'Pol would know what the Young T'Pol knew and had done. What she might have said in that case would have been very interesting. I guess the Bond hand not been thought of by the writers when e2 was written which is why the Old T'Pol did not mention it to the young one.

[justTripn]

Plus, as T'Pold states, such a meeting would be awkward because I'd like to think that Trip is observant enough to realize something is all screwed up about T'Pol (the trellium) and would want to know what was going on. And canon T'Pol (regardless of age) does not like to admit her mistakes, so admitting that? Awkward is a very good word for it.

There is no canon indication that T'Pol continued to abuse trellium in the E2 universe. The past abuse has apparently had a permanent effect (as she tells her younger self), but T'Pol seems very poised in the episode E2. I don't think the effects of the abuse are evident to anyone but herself.

Uh ... I was not talking about T'Pold continuing to abuse the trellium. I was referencing Trip's T'Pol abusing the trellium prior to the events of E2 and Trip's lack of knowledge/understanding of this fact. Specifically, if he did encounter T'Pold, I'd expect one of his very first questions to be "what the hell is wrong with your younger counterpart? Why does she run so hot and cold?" And this would naturally be "awkward" to T'Pold because she would have to acknowledge (at least to herself) that a large part of the reason her younger counterpart was so erratic was due to the trellium. And the pa'nar (which canonically, Trip knows nothing about.) And the three mind rapes we have on record (Tolaris, Sillick, Rajiin.)

Hmm . . . I doubt he would ask that. And I doubt Older T'Pol would feel he had the right to know the answer. Young T'Pol is working through some things. Even after the trellium abuse is over, she runs hot and cold. That is just her and some legitimate issues she has to work through. She is a Vulcan and is rejecting some Vulcan ways and isn't too comfortable with any of it. She is not a good Vulcan, she isn't fitting in all that well with the humans. Everything is difficult for her. If young T'Pol is not ready to accept Trip at this point, then she is not ready. I don't see old T'Pol telling her to hurry up and embrace Trip, you dummy. She said, "trust your heart" or something. She is gentle with her younger self.

I have imagned a scene where the Young T'Pol takes Trip to see the OLd T'Pol after her first visit with the Older one.

The Old T'Pol asks if she can borrow the young T'Pol's Trip for aminute. Young T'Pol says he is not hers and the Old one says yes he is. Trip goes to the old one she embraces him and then says "You can have him back now" and T'Po(younger) says he is not mine. Old one ssys he is but you wont admit it.

I really like that scene. You should do it. I would just leave out that last line: "He is but you won't admit it." Again. I don't think Older T'Pol will push Younger T'Pol. She will make her little comment and when T'Pol says "He is not mine" she will just harumph or something. Like "I'm not buying it, but whatever you say . . ."