Trippin’ With “Older T’Pol"

[Alelou]

Does this mean Old T'Pol knows that Young T'Pol is stubborn and perverse?

[justTripn]

Yeah, I don't know where that outburst of sympathy for T'Pol came from.

[Alelou]

Some of my favorite characters are stubborn and perverse.

[AllisonPetra]

How many times do you just "fall in love" in an instant or all of a sudden (without some kind of margarita-ish concoction)? I know it happens , but how frequent is that? The flame between Trip & T'Pol had to have been sparking for some time before Vulcan.

Didn’t he ask T’Pol, in the Home episode, what she told her mother about him – “what does she know about us”? That says to me, as I mount my dead horse, that they were in an active relationship (hubba, hubba). There was an "us". Didn’t Trip tell T’Les that he and T'Pol were romantically involved. That he knew they had chemistry when they first argued (that was way back in Season 1 right)?

There were so many episodes between Xindi and E2, where there was the T&T vibe, it just came to a head when he realized she would be marrying another man and he would lose her. At that point the will I/won’t I/maybe she should have picked Malcolm/ game was over. He has to admit to himself that he was "in love" with her. Did Trip “fall in love” with T’Pol on Vulcan – or did Trip finally admit to himself the extent of his feelings while they were on Vulcan?

I feel sure that Trip had feelings for T’Pol before the trip to Vulcan. The intimate practice of neuro-pressure strengthened their chemistry and led to them growing closer to each other and more comfortable together. I might be in the choir, but little scenes in Extinction, Similitude, Proving Ground, etc. - where they are sharing stories (about the engines) with each other, sharing cultural items (not just neuro-pressure, but peaches), teasing each other - give me hope that the choir is not so out of tune. They were bonding, not so much in a Vulcan sense, but in the good old Human sense. In E2 where he and T’Pol are working in Engineering he says “you’re afraid to admit that under the right circumstances you could have feelings for me, … maybe you have them already”. I think that was based on some insight he got from older T'Pol.

Even though it was just a spark, perhaps in that E2 candlelit room, he would give voice to the feelings – and maybe let them go to the full potential of their expression (i.e., loving T’Pol). After all, he was talking to older T’Pol who was 187 years old (thank you Thot), who had married him in an alternate timeline, and who had a child with him. If he’s standing in that reality (although it was in silhouette) why not go the full monty. Xindi to the left of them, Cavalans (?spelling) to the right of them, why hold back?!

After meeting the E2, I would think both Trip & T’Pol would be encouraged to start risking more, allowing their feelings to manifest. Trip because he knew their being together was possible and T’Pol because she would be following her own advice – to trust Trip and follow her heart.

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I’ve been trying to figure out whether Trip said “it has been weeks” or “it has been a week” since their last session. I don’t know how to get access to scripts, but my ears have always leaned towards “a week”. Good to have that mystery solved.

Alelou. I see a missing scene is up. I can’t wait!

[Alelou]

Chrissie's Transcript Site is the invaluable source for all script transcripts:

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/episodes.htm

She has all the other ST shows, too.

[Silverbullet]

Watched e2 again last night. It seemed that the young T'Pol said" Exploring Human Sexuality with you. You are unable to have an intimate relationship without making it and emotional one." or something on that order. What she seemed to be saying was that they were having an intimate relationship after Harbinger. That statement realy doesn't square with the rest of the episode.

[Aikiweezie]

Watched e2 again last night. It seemed that the young T'Pol said" Exploring Human Sexuality with you. You are unable to have an intimate relationship without making it and emotional one." or something on that order. What she seemed to be saying was that they were having an intimate relationship after Harbinger. That statement realy doesn't square with the rest of the episode.

She says "You are unable to have a physical relationship without developing an emotional attachment." To me that means that they just couldn't keep their hands off each other. They may have tried, but it seems to me that neuropressure led to more "exploring."

[Silverbullet]

If they did have an intimate relationship (Physical) then how can she say that her Heart doesn't know what it wants. As far as I am concerned she could not be having a sexual relationship with Trip without her having an emotional relationship too. The whole Episode bounced around. It seemded to indicate that Trip and T'Pol would someday marry as their counterparts on the old Enterprise did. But then T'Pol denies to Trip that they would get married just because the other Trip and T'Pol did. She angrily says that he cannot have a physical relationship without forming an emotional one. She denies that her Heart knows what it wants.

Sussman obviously wanted to stir the pot a bit and leave the "will they, Won't they" thing continuing.

I also cannot see the Old T'Pol letting it go with the 'It will, in time it will" She and the young T'Pol are the same person in different T'Pol bodies. She should know eactly how the Young T'Pol thinks and acts.

[AllisonPetra]

If they did have an intimate relationship (Physical) then how can she say that her Heart doesn't know what it wants. As far as I am concerned she could not be having a sexual relationship with Trip without her having an emotional relationship too.

Physical relationships without an emotional commitment? That can happen with or without a margarita. It's practically traditional - in some places (I've been told). Maybe they didn’t know how much that comfort (i.e., neuro-pressure infused companionship) would mean to them. They had chemistry for a long time even before the neuro-pressure sessions. It was a high stress mission, Xindi were trying to kill them - all of them, like that guy on TNG that killed all the Husnock. It was tense! And T'Pol is Vulcan, in spite of the trillium, maybe she was able to suppress those emotions to the point where she hadn't really embraced them?

'She and the young T'Pol are the same person in different T'Pol bodies. She should know exactly how the Young T'Pol thinks and acts.

In E2 older T’Pol said that if Enterprise hadn’t been stranded in the past it’s possible she might never have married Trip. That's close to what he said in the deleted scene - and what he said about her having feelings for him, given the right circumstances. It's all about the different possibilities and maybe taking risks.

Same person, very different experiences. Perhaps those experiences gave them very different perspectives on things. Older T'Pol had 117 years out of time, watching the changes in the crew and what they had to do to live, to survive. For generations she watched just how short life, human life particularly, was. Might that have given her a different perspective on life, and love, and loss, that the younger T'Pol may not have considered - because she did not have the same experiences?

What do you think?
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P.S. I just figured out how to bring the quotes in - hope I didn't over do it.

[Silverbullet]

Okay, the old Enterprise was thrown back in time. However, before that event the same crew, everyone the same. I stilll belive that the old Enterprise would have had the same series of events happen to it as the new one before it was thrown back in time.
what bother me is that the old Enterprise must have come from a different time line. but it still was the same Entrpise.

so, if the old Enterprise did experice the same events then the Old T'Pol did not shake Trips hand when she met him first.Trip had become Pregnant, Cogenitor, Sim, the Seduction,all of it happened to the old Enterpise as their time line would be identical to the new Enterprise. Had to be if the crew were exactly the same when it was thrown back in time.

So, the Old T'Pol would be the same person in a different T'Pol body and would know exactly what the young T'Pol had experienced and what she was thinking.

The Old T'Pol said she might not have married Trip if her Enterprise had not beenn thrown back in time which means she was just like the young one. Not certain about her future with Trip of even if she had one with him.

At the end of the episode I believe Archer suggests that the old Enterprise didn't realy exist and the young T'Pol says "then how can we remember it?" Good quexstion. Only way is that the old Enterprise came from a different time line. But in that time line had done the same things that the new Enterprise had done in its time line.


I like to think that instead of being destroyed the old Enterprise reverted to its own timeline and that Lorain and his crew survived to live our their lives.

[Thot]

At the end of the episode I believe Archer suggests that the old Enterprise didn't realy exist and the young T'Pol says "then how can we remember it?" Good quexstion. Only way is that the old Enterprise came from a different time line. But in that time line had done the same things that the new Enterprise had done in its time line.

I like to think that instead of being destroyed the old Enterprise reverted to its own timeline and that Lorain and his crew survived to live our their lives.

The funny thing is that the "they have been erased from time" idea doesn't make sense in itself.

Consider this:
You have the 'official time line' (O.T.L.) with two points on it. Number One being the moment of entering the Kovaalan nebula (=M.E.N.; moment of entering nebula) and the moment of crossing the corridor (=M.C.C.) So in the first attempt Enterprise is thrown back in time, the crew becomes a generational one and so forth.
117 years after the time jump, Lorian intercepts the Enterprise in the O.T.L. and prevents the ship from reaching M.E.N. Instead they enter the nebula at least hours later (Lorian's engine upgrades, old T'Pol's modifications at the impulse drive, the fighting between the two NX-ships), perhaps even one or two days, creating a new moment of entering the nebula (M.E.N.'). And since the Enterprise wouldn't fly through the nebula any slower then at the first attempt, necessarily there's a new, later moment of going through the corridor (M.C.C.'). Therefore, M.C.C.' lies later as M.C.C. on the O.T.L.

This leads to one fundamental question: Why should Lorian together with the other Enterprise cease to exist as the original Enterprise flies through the corridor, when the original points of the O.T.L. are already passed? Why aren't they erased from time when they reach M.C.C.?
In other episodes with alternative timeline they always stress the point of making the same actions at the same point in time. Especially in the DS9 episode 'Children of Time' Yedrin Dax stresses this point. In the end it leads to one likely conclusion: an obvious inconsistency by the writers/producers side.

But on the other hand you can "rescue" the consistency by postulating that the O.T.L. and the time line of Lorian emerged to a new official time line (O.T.L.'). On the other hand it doesn't mean that Lorian's ship could be still destroyed by the Kovaalans.

What kind of nice plot idea/scenes this can create, can be looked up in the Reconnection series by HopefulRomantic

By the way: I'm still working on writing an alternative version of E² and the following episodes, but aside with some first chapters and a first skript on the later scenes I'm not that far yet.

[Silverbullet]

Thot you lost me. Not hard to do actually.

I was thinking that the Old Enterprise was thrown back in time in it's own timeline and somehow managed to cross over to our Enterprises timeline to help it avoid being thrown back in time and ensure that Archer meets Degra.

Once that has happened then they go back to their own timeline. The events in the two timelines have not effect on what happens. It is the action taken by Lorain and Archer after the two ships meet in our timeline that matters.

No matter when the new Enterprise enters the Nebula and through the corridor is not related to when the Old Enterprise entered the same Nebula and corridor in its timeline.

I remmeber in the episode the Old Enterprise was being attacked and Lorain had ordered a full spread of torpedoes fired at the attackers. that is the last we saw of the Old Enterprise.

Perhaps the Old Entrprise was from a different dimension and returned to it. lots of things to play with.

Like your analysis though. Just a bit over my simple mind.

SB

[EntAllat]

Plus, as T'Pold states ...

T'Pold.

Nice one.

[AllisonPetra]

Okay, the old Enterprise was thrown back in time. However, before that event the same crew, everyone the same. I stilll belive that the old Enterprise would have had the same series of events happen to it as the new one before it was thrown back in time.......so, if the old Enterprise did experice the same events then the Old T'Pol did not shake Trips hand when she met him first.Trip had become Pregnant, Cogenitor, Sim, the Seduction,all of it happened to the old Enterpise as their time line would be identical to the new Enterprise. Had to be if the crew were exactly the same when it was thrown back in time.......So, the Old T'Pol would be the same person in a different T'Pol body and would know exactly what the young T'Pol had experienced and what she was thinking.

She would have the same experiences/feelings, up to the point E2 enters the nebula (M.E.N). At that point older T’Pol is on a different timeline and has a new set of experiences that younger T’Pol did not have. It would be a whole new world, 117 years back, with all new experiences and possibilities. Also, she would not have relived the pre nebula years, right? Those 117 years would have been added on from where they were at the time of entering the nebula. New experiences, new possibilities, different decisions.

Perhaps the reason the Enterprise remembers E2 is because the timelines did not reset to before the meetings happened. Another timeline was created. So the Enterprise crew remembers the E2 crew. But did the E2 crew survive? That’s my question. It would be sad to lose all of those people especially the kids on the ship.

I guess they could have gone back to the other side of the nebula to avoid the Kovaalans, make repairs, and treat injuries. After which they would try again to cross the nebula and emerge at a later date from the corridor. Then they’d have to track down the Enterprise, which would take a long time cause so much had happened to the Enterprise after the meeting with Degra. I’m sure they were meant to meet again in future seasons. Sadly we never got to those seasons.

The Reconnecting Series says that E2 did survive and the story continues in wonderful ways once the ships reconnect. Check it out on House of Tucker.

[AllisonPetra]

E2 encounter. Missing scene in FanFic. Check it out (includes deleted scene).

The Path Ahead - By ginamr