What can T'pol say to trip that is special

[Silverbullet]

Why did t'Pol invite Trip to Vulcan? He told her he was not going home. She probably had thought he was going to. So. she may have seen an opportunity to take him home to meet Mother. In the Unexpected T'Pol said that meeting the parents was the first step towards marriage. So, this might have been her first tentitive step. If Mother approves of Trip then T'Pol can reveal how she actually feels towards him. Koss thew a lot of junk in to that. Still that would explain her invitation better than she just made the invitation because he was not going home but chose to stay and supervise the installation of the new Engines.

[Kotik]

Why did t'Pol invite Trip to Vulcan? He told her he was not going home. She probably had thought he was going to. So. she may have seen an opportunity to take him home to meet Mother. In the Unexpected T'Pol said that meeting the parents was the first step towards marriage. So, this might have been her first tentitive step. If Mother approves of Trip then T'Pol can reveal how she actually feels towards him. Koss thew a lot of junk in to that. Still that would explain her invitation better than she just made the invitation because he was not going home but chose to stay and supervise the installation of the new Engines.

Bringing him home to her mother has absolutely no meaning for Vulcans. The meet-the-parents thing would only make sense for species, where one is allowed to chose his/her mate himself. That doesn't quite apply to Vulcans.

[Alelou]

Yes, but this Vulcan thought her betrothal was broken, so taking this guy home to mother might have had quite a BIT of significance.

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol had already taken a big step by Seducing Trip. She did an about face in the morning but the Genie was out of the Bottle she couldn't go back and undo that night.

By home they seemed to be back on track in their relationship. Perhaps shd did take the Old T'Pols advice to Heart.

T'Pol honestly thought her engagement had been broken. If it had not been before if the parents and Koss found out she had did the dirty with Trip it certainly would have been then.

T'Pol is bringing home the guy she has chosen. She wants Mother to meet him. Not sure if she actually wanted Mothers approval or not but certainly she wanted Mother to meet Trip.

Mother obviously had other plans for T'Pol. this has always bothered me. T'Pol had reached her majority she was an Adult woaman. She no longer was subject to her mothers deamands. She was an independent woman. So Mother saying that it was debateable if T'Pol was no longer engaged to Koss was out of line.

I always belived that Mother, Koss and his family were in on the Blackmail of T'Pol.

Mother may have convinced herself she was doing this for T'Pol's own good but it was not up to her to run T'Pol's life. too, Mother must have known she was not going back to the position for very long but was going to the Forge to search for Surak's Katra. She should have kept herself out of T'Pols personal life as T'Pol was obviously intent on returning to Earth and said she might not be back for some years.

[Kotik]

T'Pol honestly thought her engagement had been broken. If it had not been before if the parents and Koss found out she had did the dirty with Trip it certainly would have been then.

That implies that there is a similar way in Vulcan physiology to tell whether a female is a virgin or not, because I don't think she would tell them that. She could've gotten rid of Koss quicker by telling him she was boinking the human, rather than vaguely implying that she was ill (the talk in the atrium). She didn't so I think she wouldn't ever have let T'Mom or Koss know that.

T'Pol is bringing home the guy she has chosen. She wants Mother to meet him. Not sure if she actually wanted Mothers approval or not but certainly she wanted Mother to meet Trip.

I don't neccessarily agree. She didn't even plan to take him with her. She only offered it less than 24 hours before driving off, when Trip told her that he had nowhere to go. Her original plans did not involve him.

Mother obviously had other plans for T'Pol. this has always bothered me. T'Pol had reached her majority she was an Adult woaman. She no longer was subject to her mothers deamands. She was an independent woman. So Mother saying that it was debateable if T'Pol was no longer engaged to Koss was out of line.

You are applying human standards to a Vulcan. On Vulcan is is by tradition her right to enforce the marriage. That's their way. The parents selected her mate shortly after she stopped soiling her diapers. Even if it is apalling for a human, for a Vulcan it's tradition.

I always belived that Mother, Koss and his family were in on the Blackmail of T'Pol.

Of course they were. How could her mother know who wrote the letter and what it was about. I dodn't think she opened it before. That would be a blatant eclat.

Mother may have convinced herself she was doing this for T'Pol's own good but it was not up to her to run T'Pol's life. too, Mother must have known she was not going back to the position for very long but was going to the Forge to search for Surak's Katra. She should have kept herself out of T'Pols personal life as T'Pol was obviously intent on returning to Earth and said she might not be back for some years.

T'Mom had a right to interfer. However, her coercing her by blackmail is unacceptable behavior. Her choice was even more apalling, because she must have known that she wouldn't get her post back for very long. The problem is that T'Pol had come to appreciate some human values (like choosing one's mate based on affection rather than what ever the base is Vulcan parents make their choice of betrothed for their children on)
Her mother wants her to return to the Vulcan values (and Vulcan for that matter). Her choice of means to achieve that is the questionable bit of the whole shebang.

[panyasan]

I don't neccessarily agree. She didn't even plan to take him with her. She only offered it less than 24 hours before driving off, when Trip told her that he had nowhere to go. Her original plans did not involve him.

I always got from that scene and Trips question that they had been spending time together. I like to think T'Pol saw Trips remark as a opportunity to get him along to Vulcan and meet her mother. I think she does mention in a earlier episode that to ask some one to meet the parents means "a serious relationship" in many cultures. Any way, she suggested it and he accepted it with such ease that I can't imagine T'Pol hadn't thought of taking Trip to Vulcan before. Besides, Vulcans don't strike me as people that do things "in the spure of the moment".

[Alelou]

T'Pol honestly thought her engagement had been broken. If it had not been before if the parents and Koss found out she had did the dirty with Trip it certainly would have been then.

That implies that there is a similar way in Vulcan physiology to tell whether a female is a virgin or not, because I don't think she would tell them that. She could've gotten rid of Koss quicker by telling him she was boinking the human, rather than vaguely implying that she was ill (the talk in the atrium). She didn't so I think she wouldn't ever have let T'Mom or Koss know that.

Just because she didn't bring up the first time she's faced with Koss, a person she clearly wasn't expecting to see, doesn't mean she wouldn't bring it up eventually. The fact that they're willing to let her leave for a year immediately after the marriage and aren't already insulted out of any further consideration of the marriage by Tucker's presence suggests to me that this was a pretty dry negotiation over a political alliance. T'Pol's sexual status might not have mattered in the slightest.

[Kotik]

T'Pol honestly thought her engagement had been broken. If it had not been before if the parents and Koss found out she had did the dirty with Trip it certainly would have been then.

That implies that there is a similar way in Vulcan physiology to tell whether a female is a virgin or not, because I don't think she would tell them that. She could've gotten rid of Koss quicker by telling him she was boinking the human, rather than vaguely implying that she was ill (the talk in the atrium). She didn't so I think she wouldn't ever have let T'Mom or Koss know that.

Just because she didn't bring up the first time she's faced with Koss, a person she clearly wasn't expecting to see, doesn't mean she wouldn't bring it up eventually. The fact that they're willing to let her leave for a year immediately after the marriage and aren't already insulted out of any further consideration of the marriage by Tucker's presence suggests to me that this was a pretty dry negotiation over a political alliance. T'Pol's sexual status might not have mattered in the slightest.

That's one of the biggest plotholes in the whole story. Koss says that his parents are very traditional and therefore want to see the marriage happen, but almost immediately they abandon tradition by letting her return to the ship instead of living with him for a year. Now, how illogical is that? Of course we all know that the whole Koss sub-plot was only included to contrive angst ans this little paradoxon pretty much shows it. Making any sense of "Home" has always given me a headache

[Alelou]

Oh, it's illogical all right, if you just have "Home," but when you later throw in the domestic politics of the Vulcan arc, you can make a kind of sense out of it. (Not that I really believe they'd already figured that out when they wrote "Home," mind you.)

Either that, or they've realized like the rest of us that T'Pol has to back into every freakin' thing she does, denying it the whole time. So if you give her a whole year to get used to the idea that she's married, she might be just fine with it in the end. (And honestly, I think she might have been. Koss has always struck me as a very patient, forgiving Vulcan, and she seems to require that in a man.)

[Kotik]

Alelou,

It is only my opinion (as a somewhat millitant TnT shipper) but I don't think she ever was getting used to being married to Koss. Her somewhat strange reaction ("You don't have to do this"), when Koss released her from the marriage, was more like a realization that she was now completely alone. She had alienated Trip by her idiotic antics, her mother was dead and now the husband (sort of like 'better than nothing') was dumping her. The point is somewhat proven in the drone-ship arc, when Archer learns of her divorce and offers his condolences and she says that there's nothing to offer commiseration for. She doesn't actually grieve for the lost marriage, her only problem is being alone, because everyone, who cared for her is either dead or she has repeatedly kicked him in the nuts (Trip). Basically it's just the crappy writing in S04, but that's what we've gotta work with. As good as Manny Coto's arcs in S04 were. The whole will-they-won't-they crap bordered on character assasination.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, when does a vulcan ever reach his/her majoirty? when does that person get to live his/her life as they choose? Are they cosidered chidren all of their lives and are subject to the dictates of their parents until their parents are dead? doubt that. T'Pol was supposedly 66 years old. So when does she stop being a child and start being an Adult.

That is why I never cottoned to the idea that Mother could chose a new male or force T'Pol in to renwing an engagement that had been broken by the parents of Koss. She had to resort to Blackmail to get T'Pol to do what she wanted and Koss, of course, was all for that.

I still belive (if the writers handn't made up the crappy episode the way they did) if T'Pol had seimply told Mother and Koss that she had mated with Trip and as far as she was cocerned thye were a mated couple that would have been it. Mother put the screws to T'Pol by lying to her. she never revealed her plans not to take the position for very long but that she was going in to the forge to help look for the Katra.

Mother never struck me as being overly concerned with what T'Pol might have wanted or what might have made T'Pol appy.

Actually the whole Episode could have been left out. the marriage was a sham and it only served to stir the pot.

[Alelou]

Oh, I'm not saying she was really disappointed about losing KOSS ... I think you're right that she was mostly taken aback at being alone. But I think that at that point she was perhaps coming around to the idea that she was married to him ... that there were worse things than observing Vulcan custom ... that he had helped save the day when he could have been a prick ... and so, given some time, she might have come to have affection for him after all, in the Vulcan way. Or at least she could have if there hadn't been that pesky bond with Trip that she didn't know she had because, I can only conclude, the writers hadn't thought of it yet.

I also don't think she ever intentionally kicked Trip in the cajones. I think she was mostly just extraordinarily clueless about how her actions would emotionally impact someone who had a pair. But yeah, I know most guys would never even consider forgiving her for all those offenses against their manhood.

"Home" is one of my favorite Star Trek episodes ever. It's the one that really got me hooked me on ENT. Here was an alien culture that was being REALLY alien, and it had real consequences. A lesser show would have given Trip and T'Pol some convenient fix before the episode was over. But I know we'll never all agree on that.

[Transwarp]

I'm with Alelou on this. I liked 'Home', on the whole. Sure, they were getting a raw deal, but look at what it revealed of their strength of character.

T'Pol's strong sense of duty and loyalty was evident as she set aside her own needs to prevent an injustice to her mother. And Trip loved her enough to support her decision. He let her be Vulcan, let her do what she felt she must do, even though we know it was tearing him up inside to stand there at that ceremony. In fact, my belief is that if Trip hadn't been there lending T'Pol his support, she never would have had the strength to go through with it.

True, it was heart-wrenching to watch, but what they did was also good and decent and noble.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

[WarpGirl]

[Kotik]

Alelou,

I know that we differ on that. Actually I put in the words 'my opinion' in some of my posts for a reason. There's a German saying: "Gebranntes Kind scheut das Feuer" (A burnt child is afraid of fire). I've gotten the Trip treatment myself for four years, just a lot worse. The major difference is, that I didn't end up with a bond, I ended up with a depression in a phychiatric clinic for months. That's why I react very badly to someone being turtured in love things and the way T'Pol was written in S04 spoils the whole season for me, despite the episodes being of generally great quality in contrast to anything before "Home".
I actually like "Home", I just never managed to watch the ending more than once. It's almost physically painful for me as the 'tearing up inside' - as Transwarp describes it - is a very real experience for me. This probably explains why I hate TnT relationship angst with a violent passion and why my stories end up on the fluffy side. So please don't take me as representative of the male view on things. I'm only representative of burnt children.