What can T'pol say to trip that is special

[Silverbullet]

Exactly. Words have different connocations. I have feelings for you." but one can have feelings for nay number of things as one can Love any number of things. They are too generic. For a vulcan perhaps the Vulcan language is more precise.

In Harbinger T'Pol never admitted to having "feelings" for Trip she just said does that mean you believe I am atttracted to you. Later she says that Trip is confused about who has feelings for whom. She cites that Sim said "He had feelings for me." That always intrigued me since she did not say that Sim said Trip had feelings for her but that he, Sim, had feelings for her. since Sim was a different personality in the clones body that put a different spin on what she said.

She may have interpreted what Sim said as expressing Trips feelings but that is not what Sim said. He said he was not sure if it was his or Trips feelings he was expressing. T'Pol said "He said he had feelings for me" meaning Sim. That might explain why she kissed Sim. in response to his declaration of "feelings for her.

Anyway, the same words have different meanings to people

SB

[Enerdhil]

Exactly. Words have different connocations. I have feelings for you." but one can have feelings for nay number of things as one can Love any number of things. They are too generic. For a vulcan perhaps the Vulcan language is more precise.

In Harbinger T'Pol never admitted to having "feelings" for Trip she just said does that mean you believe I am atttracted to you. Later she says that Trip is confused about who has feelings for whom. She cites that Sim said "He had feelings for me." That always intrigued me since she did not say that Sim said Trip had feelings for her but that he, Sim, had feelings for her. since Sim was a different personality in the clones body that put a different spin on what she said.

She may have interpreted what Sim said as expressing Trips feelings but that is not what Sim said. He said he was not sure if it was his or Trips feelings he was expressing. T'Pol said "He said he had feelings for me" meaning Sim. That might explain why she kissed Sim. in response to his declaration of "feelings for her.

Anyway, the same words have different meanings to people

SB

Well, I suppose that her play with the words - until Trip 'assumes' he his jealous of himself, and she concludes he is attracted to her - was her way to know if the feelings were from Trip of from Sim...

[Silverbullet]

When Trip says he is jealous of himself he knows that the Clone was in his image. So in a way he is jealous of himself.

However,it was established that Sim was a serperate entity in the clones body. So what Sim said could be either his feelings or Trips. Sim said that 'You are all that I think of, if you know what I mean." That is the Sim personality talking. Then he expresses those feelings and admits his confusion.

I always believed that Sim was beginning to believe that he was Trip and then not Trip but Sim. He was confused about his idenity. When he entered Engineering before the operation he said "the two most important things to me are here." But Sim wouldn't know straight up about Engineering. his only conncection to Engineering would be Trips memories. also, Sim really didn't know T'Pol. He had a physical crush on her but other than that he didn;t know squat about her his only knowledge was Trips memories. So he was beginning to believe he was Trip and Sim too.

It is the fact the neither T'Pol or Sim really knew one another that made the Kiss seem odd. T'Pol is supposed to be coldly logical and logic would tell her that Sim was not even an aquaintence. that she had known the real Trip for two years and hadn't the desire to kiss him why should she kiss Sim.

[Alelou]

Maybe T'Pol believes that a difference that makes no difference is not really a difference. Sim had all of Trip's memories, so... of course engineering meant a lot to him. And of course T'Pol did, too -- only even more so, because Trip didn't spend his adolescence fantasizing about T'Pol, and he wasn't operating on an impossibly limited time frame, like Sim was. She did kind of make a leap, there, in assuming that those were Trip's feelings too ... you could say she floated a trial balloon. Which may be why she looked so crushed when he said absolutely not.

Would he have taken it back if she hadn't looked so crushed?

Ah man, it's such a dysfunctional relationship and yet so much fun to watch.

[justTripn]

I am going to be a party pooper and say that T'Pol is not inclined to say anything special to Trip. Her williness to always be there for him (in the E2 universe her willingness to marry him and have his child) substitutes for saying anything. If he can count on her in this way, that is close enough.

As for the possibility of two people falling in love within a week or a day or instantly, well duh! Happens all the time. There is a conviction that this particular person "gets you," can read your mind, or specially cares about you. In the case of Sim and T'Pol, those impressions would have a basis. T'Pol does "get" Sim and she specially cares about him (because she know Trip). Sim picks up on this. Sim knows T'Pol more than he should, having some of Trip's memories. On top of that, Sim, unlike Trip, has nothing to lose, so he says what Trip (T'Pol's collegue) would not be inclined to say. So Sim and T'Pol can actually be closer than Sim and Trip in a certain way.

[WarpGirl]

I am going to be a party pooper and say that T'Pol is not inclined to say anything special to Trip. Her williness to always be there for him (in the E2 universe her willingness to marry him and have his child) substitutes for saying anything. If he can count on her in this way, that is close enough.

Preach on jT! There is nothing wrong with that at all. In fact those things mean more than any sentimental words. Love is action not words.

And since Aikiweezie picked up the stick...

The horse is dead but I'll continue beating it anyway. Trip's remark, "What does you mom know about me...about us?" Sealed it for me. Can't imagine he'd say that about a one night thing months ago.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but since there is a 99.9% chance T'Pol was a virgin (she was enganged to Koss and only met him 4 times in 62 years) and she wasn't in the habit of having sex in the 3 years he's known her. Why wouldn't he assume she said something to her mother? Maybe Vulcans don't discuss losing their vriginity with there mothers, but since he doesn't know one way or the other it is a reasonable question for him to ask.

[panyasan]

And since Aikiweezie picked up the stick...

The horse is dead but I'll continue beating it anyway. Trip's remark, "What does you mom know about me...about us?" Sealed it for me. Can't imagine he'd say that about a one night thing months ago.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but since there is a 99.9% chance T'Pol was a virgin (she was enganged to Koss and only met him 4 times in 62 years) and she wasn't in the habit of having sex in the 3 years he's known her. Why wouldn't he assume she said something to her mother? Maybe Vulcans don't discuss losing their vriginity with there mothers, but since he doesn't know one way or the other it is a reasonable question for him to ask.

Maybe Vulcans don't discuss losing their virginity with their mothers??? Who does? I remember before my wedding (and wedding night - and my first time), my mother tried to talk about it and I was like "Can we change the subject?" . And in contrast to T'Pol I have a good relationship with my mother and I do talk to her about my life.
Also, where I come from, guys don't ask things like "Did you tell your mother we had sex?" So my conclusion is that Trip is asking "does your mother know we have a relationship?"

[Aikiweezie]

And since Aikiweezie picked up the stick...

The horse is dead but I'll continue beating it anyway. Trip's remark, "What does you mom know about me...about us?" Sealed it for me. Can't imagine he'd say that about a one night thing months ago.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but since there is a 99.9% chance T'Pol was a virgin (she was enganged to Koss and only met him 4 times in 62 years) and she wasn't in the habit of having sex in the 3 years he's known her. Why wouldn't he assume she said something to her mother? Maybe Vulcans don't discuss losing their vriginity with there mothers, but since he doesn't know one way or the other it is a reasonable question for him to ask.

Maybe Vulcans don't discuss losing their virginity with their mothers??? Who does? I remember before my wedding (and wedding night - and my first time), my mother tried to talk about it and I was like "Can we change the subject?" And in contrast to T'Pol I have a good relationship with my mother and I do talk to her about my life.
Also, where I come from, guys don't ask things like "Did you tell your mother we had sex?" So my conclusion is that Trip is asking "does your mother know we have a relationship?"

That's what I meant panyasan. "Does you mom know we're involved," not "Does you mom know we had sex."

[panyasan]

Yes, we did had the same thought.

[Silverbullet]

JT, how could Sim and T'Pol fall in LOVE instantly? They don't know one another. they are barely aquinted. She doesn't even call him Sim. She reminds himm that he is not Commander Tucker though. If it is love at first sight then T'Pol first sight would be the clone which looks walks, talks and acts like Trip so she falls in love with Trip at first sight of the clone. She could NOT see Sim he was just an identity in the clones body. Up until the fifth day the only identity in the Clone was Trip. so where did this Sim come from? Did T'Pol hear him say that she was all he thought of and bingo she thought "I love him, I love him, I love him?" She knew Trip for two years. saw him at his best and his worst through danger, thick and thin and didn't fall in love with him so how could she instnatly fall in love with Sim. she is supposed to be a coldly logical, unemotional Vulcan. She wouldn't fall all over herself in love with Sim.

When she kisses Sim is she thinking that he is her Great Love and that she will remember him forever as her only love. that Tuckker guy is second choice but it all that is left after Sim dies so she has to settle for him? Maybe that is why she could never make up her mind about Trip because she was always thinking of her Great Lost LOVE, Sim.

I doubt if T'Pol had any feelings for Sim other than he was the means of saving the Man she really loved.

[WarpGirl]

The horse is dead but I'll continue beating it anyway. Trip's remark, "What does you mom know about me...about us?" Sealed it for me. Can't imagine he'd say that about a one night thing months ago.

That's what I meant panyasan. "Does you mom know we're involved," not "Does you mom know we had sex."

We were discussing whether they had an ongoing sexual relationship though, and you've said many times that you believe they did Aikiweezie sighting that line from Home as a main reason for it. My only question is how does that line offer any evidence that they were having an ongoing sexual relationship?

As to whether girls talk about that stuff witth their mom's well I know many who do and many who don't. My point is that Trip didn't know what kind of relationship T'Pol had with her mother until he landed on Vulcan. So to him it might have been perfectly reasonable for him to wonder whether or not T'Pol told her mother about it.

[Aikiweezie]

The horse is dead but I'll continue beating it anyway. Trip's remark, "What does you mom know about me...about us?" Sealed it for me. Can't imagine he'd say that about a one night thing months ago.

That's what I meant panyasan. "Does you mom know we're involved," not "Does you mom know we had sex."

We were discussing whether they had an ongoing sexual relationship though, and you've said many times that you believe they did Aikiweezie sighting that line from Home as a main reason for it. My only question is how does that line offer any evidence that they were having an ongoing sexual relationship?

As to whether girls talk about that stuff witth their mom's well I know many who do and many who don't. My point is that Trip didn't know what kind of relationship T'Pol had with her mother until he landed on Vulcan. So to him it might have been perfectly reasonable for him to wonder whether or not T'Pol told her mother about it.

I think there are other examples indicating that their relationship continued on and off both sexually/emotionally beyond "Harbinger." T'Pol telling Trip "I don't think I'll have time......" and Trip's response of "Well at least my engines still need me." Trip telling Malcolm that "There's nothing going on between us any more," and "I should have known better than to get involved with another officer." "I've never been pregnant." etc.

Some people see it one way, some see it another. I don't think T'Pol would tell her mother that she was having sex with Trip under ANY circumstances. I think what Trip is asking is regarding their RELATIONSHIP. Is hs someone special in her life that she is bringing home with her? MORE than just a colleague.

[Enerdhil]

I agree with Aik, I always considered that dialog something that a casual "boyfriend" could ask to his "girlfriend" before meeting her parents for the first time. It is about their personal and romantic relationship, not about their sexual life.

[Alelou]

I don't know. If you're an adult and you bring a grown man home with you across 16 light years to stay at your mother's house, do you really even need to explain, "Oh, and by the way, I'm making it with this dude?" Some things can just go unspoken.

But since Trip gets banished to the guest room, these things can obviously go unaccepted, too.

[WarpGirl]

I don't think T'Pol would tell her mother that she was having sex with Trip under ANY circumstances.

Neither do I. I was only trying to bring out that Trip wouldn't know if she had that type of relationship with her mother or not. Therefore it isn't a crazy thought that he might wonder if she did talk to her mother about it.

I think there are other examples indicating that their relationship continued on and off both sexually/emotionally beyond "Harbinger." T'Pol telling Trip "I don't think I'll have time......" and Trip's response of "Well at least my engines still need me." Trip telling Malcolm that "There's nothing going on between us any more," and "I should have known better than to get involved with another officer." "I've never been pregnant." etc.

I'm still not sure how these lines indicate a physical relationship. Would people consider TnT romantically involved if they hadn't had sex at all?