What can T'pol say to trip that is special

[Alelou]

Kotik, you may be a burnt child, but you are in fact just one of a number of guys I know in ff who have serious trouble forgiving T'Pol for the way she treated Trip. See BlacknBlue's fine body of work, for one. I would say the difficulty of forgiving T'Pol is a major recurring theme there.

I think it's reasonable to have that reaction. She did treat him badly. I just don't think she really understood how badly, and I also feel I can't really judge her harshly when she's upholding the values of her own culture at her own personal cost, as she did in "Home."

She's really lucky that Trip is an extraordinarily flexible and forgiving guy. (Heck, even Connor Trinneer thought Trip was being too much of a doormat. He would have bailed on T'Pol a lot earlier.)

[Kotik]

Kotik, you may be a burnt child, but you are in fact just one of a number of guys I know in ff who have serious trouble forgiving T'Pol for the way she treated Trip. See BlacknBlue's fine body of work, for one. I would say the difficulty of forgiving T'Pol is a major recurring theme there.

Quite frankly, I've got no problem 'forgiving' her, as I'm realistic enough to see that the whole behavior of hers is contrived as the writers were shying away from having to deal with a romance. Maybe they wanted to 'protect' Sarek and Amanda as the first high-profile interspecies pair. My main gripe is that the episodes themselves are really good stories, but are poisoned by having that useless angsty stuff, which makes it difficult for me to watch them. That's why most of my work is post-Bound stuff.

She's really lucky that Trip is an extraordinarily flexible and forgiving guy. (Heck, even Connor Trinneer thought Trip was being too much of a doormat. He would have bailed on T'Pol a lot earlier.)

You have no idea, how spine-less a guy can be when it comes to a woman he loves. Case in point. As I said I was a doormat myself for four years. The woman in question told me that she was raped as a twelve year old, so any 'doing the dirty' was a rare occurance (exactly twice in four years). I don't know if this was true, but it isn't exactly something you're going to question, is it. One day she it turned out she was pregnant and since it had been 15 months since our last 'encounter' it was somewhat obvious that I didn't have anything to do with it. Any guy with a spine would have shown her the door. I didn't. In fact she miscarried a few days later and I helped her cope, only to learn that she cheated on me again, once she was over the worst of it. That was my express ticket into an extreme binge-drinking streak of several weeks, followed by several months treatment for depression (and being considered 'suicidal', which isn't fun btw.)
I may be an extreme case, but depending on the depth of love, some guys are willing to endure some pretty nasty abuse. I find it sometimes disturbing how much of a pounding Trip is willing to tolerate, because it always reminds me what I was allowing to be done to me

[Distracted]

Sounds like she needed a psychiatrist a lot more than you did, Kotik. And you weren't a doormat. You were a friend. She was just too messed up to appreciate the value of that. Friendship trumps romantic love for the long haul any day of the week. It's not your fault that she couldn't see that.

[WarpGirl]

Kotik, there is a big difference between a woman manipulating a loving and good man (like yourself) because she is messed up and cruel, and how T'Pol treated Trip. Was T'Pol harsh at times? Sure I can't stand E2 because I think they did more damage to her character there than any other episode. But never not once was she deliberately manipulative or vicious because she knew she could be. I know she knew that she hurt him, but she didn't know how to expess herself any differently. She is a Vulcan.

As for the people (because I think more than a few women also have put T'Pol through the ringer before forgiving her) having trouble "forgiving" T'Pol I have to say these stories are disturbing to me. Love necessitates complete and genuine forgiveness, if Trip has "trouble" or holds it back, then the relationship is not only doomed, but supremely unhealthy.

[Silverbullet]

Forgiveness is a large part of true love. It takes strength at times.

I don't see T'Pol marriage as noble because she was manipulated in to it. She thought she was making a sacrifice for her Mother so she did it at Trip's expense knowing he would back her decision even if it tore him up. But Mother was cynical. She wanted T'Pol to marry Koss despitewhat T'Pol wanted and despite the fact that koss was not the man for T'Pol. Mother didn't care. she only cared for herself and her Traditions those trumped verything. nobility was not part of the marriage.

What got me is the fact the the Mother believed to the end that she did the right thing even telling T'Pol that she loved her. This after helping blackmail T'Pol in to a marriage she really didn't want. Knowing that she would not need the position back for long and that she would be joining the group to search for the Katra when she helped blackmail T'Pol. that is hardly what I would call a loving Mother but not an unusual one either.

Kotik, you are not the only one who has been put through the torture chamber by a female. It probably happens to most guys at one time or another. I had my round.

SB

[Kotik]

Kotik, you are not the only one who has been put through the torture chamber by a female. It probably happens to most guys at one time or another. I had my round.

SB

Since it is a touchy topic, I'd like to put in for the record, that it happens the other way round, too. Probably even much more often. There are many men, who treat a woman that loves them badly. Just don't want to give the impression of being on a gender high-horse here.

[WarpGirl]

We humans all put each other through some sort of torture. We're all borken and flawed. Which is why I can't understand why the attitude of "well so-in-so hurt me first" is used as some justification for bad behavior.

Anyway T'Pol hurt Trip sometimes Trip hurt T'Pol, if they love each other then they forgive each other. And guess what... That's not being a doormat, that's being a person who knows how to give love. And love is strength.

[Alelou]

When you think about it, T'Pol is probably the perfect storm of things that can make a woman oblivious to her partner's needs ... she's Vulcan, so she discounts feelings (including her own); she is apparently an only child, so she presumably had no brothers around and is not used to having to think about sharing and empathizing with others as much as someone who grew up with siblings might ... and it's possible, at least, that she never really knew her father during that period of time in which a child is internalizing some of this stuff, like what is absolutely guaranteed to piss daddy off (though I suppose that might be hard to determine with a Vulcan father). Then add the unlikeliness that Vulcans read novels or watch entertainments in which they get to experience different people's points of view. She probably didn't even take Psych 101 in college, because I doubt Vulcans would consider that a subject worthy of general study, at least in their own species. Neither do they date, so she has no other experiences with romantic partners.

Clearly Vulcans are damned lucky they develop mating bonds.

Kotik, you can't really blame yourself when you become the victim of someone so self-centered and dishonest and lacking in common decency. You were in a relationship with someone who didn't exist in reality because she was just a big lie. It's a really awful feeling when you realize you've been 'suckered', but I'm sure almost every person in the world who has a generous heart has been there to some degree or another (and if not, that probably just means we're still fresh bait for the next sociopath who comes along).

[WarpGirl]

First of all Vulcans do study Psychology, Troi mentions Vulcan colleagues, and there was even a Vulcan Psychologist on TNG. And I believe Tuvok or Spock mentioned studying it in their basic higher education courses. Also I don't think T'Pol was ever oblivious to the fact that she hurt Trip, I can't think of one time where she didn't realise he was hurt. But it was obvious she didn't know how to fix it. Secondly Vulcans not only read novels but they write them as well. And T'Pol does read earth litature. So frankly I think labeling her as oblivious to her partner's needs is a little far fetched. But I do concede that she had no idea if she was able to fill those needs.

[Alelou]

Where's the canon reference for Vulcans in T'Pol's time reading novels? (I'm honestly curious.) It strikes me as odd that they would read fiction but think movies are odd. I know T'POL reads human novels, presumably to help her try to figure out these people, but I don't recall any discussion of a Vulcan tradition of reading or writing fiction. (I made up pre-awakening literature as a specialty for Tolaris, but that was just me having fun.) Is it from another series?

As for psych -- I know we are introduced to a Vulcan psychiatrist who is assessing Archer at one point, but I still can't imagine that Vulcans would have an American style set of social/medical practices devoted to the study and 'healing' of the subconscious. T'Pol says Vulcans don't act subconsciously. For a science officer to say something like that suggests to me that -- at that point in Vulcan history at least -- their definition of psychology wouldn't be similar to what we have. I certainly can't imagine a Vulcan version of Psychology Today (although I think the cover could be pretty funny). Or, maybe they just have exo-psychology for trying to figure out all those crazy emotional aliens they have to deal with. After all, it seems that whenever someone Vulcan has psychiatric issues, the first thing they do is call in priests to perform ancient rituals.