Baby Elizabeth Classified?????

[WarpGirl]

Let me start off by saying it's 5AM and I haven't been to bed yet so this might not be completely coherent, please take pity and be nice.

Okay, so I was going through the transcript of Terra Prime to fact check before I made a decision on some things in my next chapter of May We... I hinted in my first chapter that Baby Elizabeth was considered "classified" in the fact that Trip and T'Pol were never formally identified as her parents, to the general public. But I thought "Hey I might be wrong..." I'm often wrong. I know this, I'm only human, not a Q, so as much as I'd like to know all, I unfortunately do not.

Anyway here's what I found...

SAMUELS: Fortunately, the news hasn't spread to the general public, and I'd like to keep it that way.
ARCHER: If we made an announcement, someone might come forward with information.
SAMUELS: An announcement of this nature could derail the conference.
ARCHER: How?
SAMUELS: You haven't spent much time on Earth lately. After the Xindi attack, there was a dangerous increase in xenophobia.
ARCHER: We got a taste of it.
SAMUELS: It died down somewhat, but not completely. There are still people out there who want us to stay in our little corner of the galaxy. The news of a Vulcan-human hybrid could inflame them, give them something to rally against.

So at first at least the general public doesn't even knoe the poor thing exists at all.

Now for

PAXTON [OC]: Do not be deceived. This is no ordinary, innocent child. This is an alien-human hybrid. Living proof of what will happen if we allow ourselves to be submerged in an interstellar coalition. Our genetic heritage.

He doesn't say this Vulcan/Human hybrid is the product of the heroic Commander Charles Tucker and T'Pol of Vulcan... So according to what the delegates, and the population at large know, this child could be anyone's...

SAMUELS: Fellow delegates, this last week we've seen what humans can be at their worst. But we cannot, we must not use that as an excuse to end the dream that began here. For then, the demons of our past will have won. Instead, I want to look to the future and begin by honouring the people responsible for our being here tonight. They represent all of us at our best.
ARCHER: Up until about a hundred years ago, there was one question that burned in every human, that made us study the stars and dream of traveling to them, Are we alone? Our generation is privileged to know the answer to that question. We are all explorers, driven to know what's over the horizon, what's beyond our own shores. And yet, the more I've experienced, the more I've learned that no matter how far we travel, or how fast we get there, the most profound discoveries are not necessarily beyond that next star. They're within us, woven into the threads that bind us, all of us, to each other. The final frontier begins in this hall. Let's explore it together.

Again no mention of the baby or her parents... Plausible denial perhaps from TPTB??????

Now here is when it gets strange...

TUCKER: (trying not to cry) The delegates at the conference, they've asked about the service for, for Elizabeth. They want to attend.

I admit this part implies that at least the delegates know who Elizabeth is... But it's unclear whether that's a fact. It could have just been a diplomatic thing where everyone got together and decided to honor this baby, and Starfleet quietly asked for parental consent. It doesn't necessarily mean they were going to announce to the universe Baby Elizabeth was the Child of Trip and T'Pol...

IDK I'm loopy... But it sounds to me like a blanket Classified stamp to me. Then again I am fond of conspiracy's and cover-ups. Besides it's not like SF never did it on ENT. Don't believe me? Look for yourself...

WILLIAMS: The details of this debriefing will remain classified, as ordered by the Command Council.

[Alelou]

They might have tried to classify it. Good luck keeping that news from leaking out somehow, though. Think of all the people who would have known ... think about the clear suggestion that Trip and T'Pol were already the subject of rumors (even Arik Soong was aware of them). Assuming Earth has not adopted some sort of fascist control of information (and judging from Gannet and other mentions here and there the show wanted to suggest the existence of a free press, however unrealistically), there's no way that wouldn't at least become an extremely widespread rumor.

[Kotik]

Paxton referred to them as "star crossed lovers", so it is reasonable to assume that the romance between Trip and T'Pol wasn't exactly a state secret.

[Silverbullet]

Harris knew. He said so to Malcom. So it could not have been tha tmuch of a secret that Trip and T'Pol were the parents.

[justTripn]

I think of the parallel to rumors about the parentage of Michael Jackson's kids. Few people have been so hounded by the press, yet the general public never saw pictures of his kids until after his death. And despite the speculation, the public (me!) doesn't' know who are the genetic parents of his kids. So rumors may fly, but unless Trip and T'Pol step out and give an interview or Starfleet releases the information, everything remains at the level of rumors, and eventually the interest dies down and people stop worrying about it. I imagine that Trip and T'Pol attended the funeral together and everyone there saw they were upset and presumed they were a couple and the parents of the child, but I don't think the press would hound them at a funeral.

If we accept *the_abomination* as part of cannon, the holoprogram makers assumed that Trip and T'Pol were a couple at one point but later broke up. Of course reporters and historians are not omnipotent so that leaves us lots of room to assume whatever we want as to what "really" happened.

And back to real life, Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie Presley surprised the world when they married. The press didn't know anything despite the fact that they had been openly vacationing together. So some information hides in plain view.

[Alelou]

Yeah, well, it could be that it would become one of those widespread rumors that most people believe even though there's never any official confirmation, like the belief that Tom Cruise is actually gay despite his marriages.

I would expect Harris to know the truth -- he's in Section 31 after all.

[pdsldl]

The general public might only have had rumors but there is no way Starfleet and the rest of the government(s)/delegates didn't know who Elizabeth was. They would want to have all the facts in order to better protect the secret and not be caught by surprise. And looking at the baby's ears said Vulcan and what would have been his point about genetics mixing if she hadn't been part human?

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, but how does Harris know? Probably by rumors on the ship.

As often as I have viewed Demons and Terra Prime I am convinced that Trip and T'Pol had an ongoing intimate relationship on the ship after "bound" they must have patched things up and started the intimacy. The Crew proably knew about it and that is where people like Paxton and Harris found out.

Since Terra Prime is the actual end of the series the Abomination doesn't really mean anything does it.

[Alelou]

I'm willing to bet that agencies like Section 31 keep track of who ships back and forth between Earth and Vulcan -- so he'd know Trip took that trip with T'Pol. He also would probably have access to any automatic surveillance of public areas on the ship. Hell, it's Section 31. For all we know, they bug everybody. Of course, Harris didn't really know what the situation was between them, so he doesn't know everything -- Malcolm had to tell him he believed them (that TnT didn't know anything about this baby).

[Silverbullet]

Comtrary to movies and TV intelligence agencies aren't THAT good. They often get caught with thier pants down. Admittedly technology has advanced but I doubt if Harris could have the entire ship bugged. Wouldn't that be something if the people found ut abut it.

Harris probably got a lot of his info from crewmen who talked off ship. Discussig rumors and persons on board. That is bread and butter for intelligence types.

I remmember in WWII a slogan "Loose Lips sinks ships." A talkative crewman or even one who wants to make a credit or two blabbing to the yellow press.

To give you and idea of the difference between movies and TV, and real life. in spy shows or movies you see the hero (Bond for instance) going all around his hotel room looking for bugs with his hand dandy little thing had. In actual fact the best bug in the room was sitting on his night stand: The Telephone. The Line can be opened from downtown at the Telephone company. East block countries used it a lot. I remember one Ecnoomic Officer compalining abut it. Seemed that he had his phone in his bedroom and before he found out that the line was open he and his wife used to make Love. He was pissed because he was overheard and because he had to move the phone out in to the living room.

I once picked up a phone in China and heard people laughing so I knew the line was open. Obviously whoever was listening must have had a warning light because I suddenly got a dial Tone. Problem was the phone was supposed to have a cut off switch at the wall which would cut the line when the phone was on the cradle. That surprised me. I had to remove the phone out to an outer room as things were discussed in the room where the phone was at the time. things that were classified. Before that the Chinese listened in on those conversations.

Harris probably got his innfomation by crew talking openly about the relationship of TnT

[Aikiweezie]

I've wondered about that myself, but came to the conclusion that either Paxton or one of his minions probably leaked the information to the general public at some point. I would also think that Paxton would want to use Trip & T'Pol's romance as an example of what bad things were supposedly happening due to human's contact with aliens and to show that there was some "inappropriate" behavior going on in Starfleet. As to the details of Elizabeth's conception and birth, I can't really imagine how they thought they could use that to their (Terra Prime) advantage. Would they try to pass off that T'Pol had given birth to her? The episode left a lot of questions about that. We probably only saw a small piece of Paxton's address to Earth about the whole thing.

I really think that the majority of humans would be sympathetic to T'Pol, Trip and the baby and Paxton's evil scheme would blow up in his face ultimately.

I am not really clear if Elizabeth's fatal genetic defect was deliberate or a mistake.

This seems ripe for story doesn't it? Lots of blanks to fill in.

[WarpGirl]

Okay so the general consensus is that because Paxton referred to them as "star crossed lovers," Soong was in on the gossip, and there was a completely unrealistic attempt at showing a "free press" that must mean that the entire world knew Baby Elizabeth belonged to TnT?????

If I understood this right I have some issues...

1. Paxton had Terra Prime SPIES on the ship, and in Starfleet. Whose to say Masaro was the only Terra Prime guy sending reports to him????? Of course he'd know about TnT...

2. Ditto Harris, Section 31 is a very shadowy secret organization. Although Malcolm believed himself to be "out" it's not out od the realm of possibility that other operatives weren't on board and watching everything. In fact, it's extremely likely. As for it being done in RL...Star Trek is fiction!

3. Soong well, he is a crafty son-of-a-gun, and he was a "big cheese" he used to have a very prominent position as a premiere scientist which gave him a lot of power... Because of his own secrets and not quite legal dealings he has to have many shadowy contacts in the galaxy. He could probably use those means to get any information at all about anything he wanted.

The general public might only have had rumors but there is no way Starfleet and the rest of the government(s)/delegates didn't know who Elizabeth was. They would want to have all the facts in order to better protect the secret and not be caught by surprise. And looking at the baby's ears said Vulcan and what would have been his point about genetics mixing if she hadn't been part human?

I agree with this mostly. I'm sure that the government of Earth and probably a good portion of the delegates were told who Elizabeth's parents were. At least the formal representatives of the governments there. (Not sure about the aids or underlings though)

But that said I don't really see Why the EarthGov would need to inform them that TnT were her parents. All they really had to say was, "The child's name is Elizabeth, we're going to have a memorial to honor her."

As for the general public... Hello Vulcans have been around for over 100 years. Why should they assume that Terra Prime used TnT's DNA specifically? Were they the only two people with human and Vulcan DNA Paxton could get his hands on? That idea is laughable. And another thing if it was so important to Paxton to use TnT specifically why didn't he announce that the baby was theirs to the universe????

[Alelou]

Why did you ask for people's opinions, again? And seeing as you raised the question, must you be quite so rude as to respond to other people's opinions with extra large letters and boldface and extra ???????s and words like "laughable"?

I guess we should just count ourselves lucky you didn't throw in a half dozen put-upon smilies while you were at it.

[Kotik]

Sorry dear, but I'll have to agree with Alelou on that one. If you don't wanna hear it, DON'T ask for other people's opinion as they might differ from your's. As Ron Dennis once so adeptly put it - 'If you can't stand the heat, get out of the ****ing kitchen'. Your replies are somewhat rude and it makes you look like a bit of a tool to start a discussion and then getting offended by the replies.

[A little edit from jT]

[justTripn]

For once, I'm at a loss for helpful words. The thread is shut down.