Abandoned stories

[Aquarius]

If we were talking about borrowing an acquaintance's car if they couldn't be found to get permission from, it would be a no-brainer that one has to assume the answer is no.

If we were talking about borrowing a roommate's sweater for a date and you couldn't track them down to ask, most people would agree that, again, you must assume the answer is no. (This isn't accounting for situations where close friends have a "help yourself" agreement; this is about situations where you don't know going in what the answer will be.)

Why does the object in question being a piece of fan literature change the answer?

It doesn't. I don't care if the fic has been abandoned for 20 years. If you can't find the author to ask them, the answer is no.

And in terms of people who've passed away, continuing their fic is absolutely the most disrespectful thing you can do. You don't know why it went unfinished--it could be completely unrelated to their death. Maybe they just never had the time, or maybe they had just hoped it would fade away into obscurity. But, seeing as they're dead, you really have no way of knowing what their final wishes would be, so out of respect for them, you really need to leave their fic alone.

Some of the living, if approached, may tell you go ahead, knock yourself out. Fanfic may have only been a superficial dalliance for them, nothing more than a time-killing hobby. A lark, or something they're just not serious about pursuing any more.

Others are more serious about their hobby. They work very hard to hone their craft, cultivate a personal style, develop their own voice and techniques. It's a very personal thing for them. They take a lot of pride in that which is uniquely "them" that they can bring to the table--or archive, as it were. I consider myself part of this group--and while I would be glad that they at least had the courtesy to ask first before doing it, I would find it awfully presumptuous if someone other than a very close friend asked me such a thing. I would almost view it as an intrusion. Yeah, I don't own the characters or the show they came from, but I *do* own what I did with them, and how I did it. We all have a right to be protective of our ideas and styles.

This is just one of those touchy situations where just because you technically can do a thing, it doesn't make it a good idea.

Honestly? Anyone contemplating this is better off thinking up their own stories and working on their own skill set and style instead of trying to "innovate" on someone else's.

And if I got wind that someone was actually doing this, I'd rip my work down off the web in a hot minute.

[WarpGirl]

TPTB authorized? I must have missed that. From what I remember when I read the author's reason for creating the language was because there was very little interest in the Vulcan language. TPTB were more interested in Klingon which is why they hired someone to flesh out that language. I think I even remember a note saying that the man tried to sell the ideas to TPTB and was constantly rejected. Did they use the material at some point? I don't know, I haven't heard any ref to it.

The Original VLI was founded by a man who got so into the Vulcan language he actually wrote and got a book published, since as far as I know you can't publish a book about anything to do with ST (other than biographies of cast and crew) without TPTB's consent. They had to have authorized the book. The website was just a continuation of what he had done. And later on eventually writers and producers used a lot of his stuff. Not all, but a good portion of it. I read about it at ST.com. Frankly if the new version was "making up" new Vulcan and adding it I'd drop that site in a hot minute. But when they said they would add to it, I assumed they meant getting all of the old stuff archived, and adding anything new from the shows, movies, or books and/media. If I'm wrong I'm gonna FREAK OUT! Because it's wrong to make up new stuff!

[Misplaced]

Others are more serious about their hobby. They work very hard to hone their craft, cultivate a personal style, develop their own voice and techniques. It's a very personal thing for them. They take a lot of pride in that which is uniquely "them" that they can bring to the table--or archive, as it were. I consider myself part of this group--and while I would be glad that they at least had the courtesy to ask first before doing it, I would find it awfully presumptuous if someone other than a very close friend asked me such a thing. I would almost view it as an intrusion. Yeah, I don't own the characters or the show they came from, but I *do* own what I did with them, and how I did it. We all have a right to be protective of our ideas and styles.

Exactly. Yeah, maybe when I posted my very first fanfic ("The Beginning of Hope" over at HoT) it was just a little game. And in my first edition of Reflections I didn't hit my stride until more than halfway through the story. But after having some betas, really good betas, push me--to take my skills to a whole new level, then that work became something more than just a thing I did for kicks. And now, after having a five year plus break, I come back to fanfiction not for fun, but because I am honing my writing ability to get original work published. I spend hours studying the art of writing, I have a beta for Dark Echoes who is a published author, who tears my work apart sentence by sentence to help me learn how to write better. Doesn't mean I'm good. Not in the least. But this means that I work my ass off -- even for fanfic and so yeah, I care that people respect that I spent hours on my stuff, and not think about taking up the torch in the case of my demise or... if life interferes with the completion of a project.

And I refuse to guess whether or not an author spent adequate time to have earned that "Don't touch it, it's my work" validation.

And if I got wind that someone was actually doing this, I'd rip my work down off the web in a hot minute.

Word.

[crystalswolf]

The Original VLI was founded by a man who got so into the Vulcan language he actually wrote and got a book published, since as far as I know you can't publish a book about anything to do with ST (other than biographies of cast and crew) without TPTB's consent. They had to have authorized the book. The website was just a continuation of what he had done. And later on eventually writers and producers used a lot of his stuff. Not all, but a good portion of it. I read about it at ST.com. Frankly if the new version was "making up" new Vulcan and adding it I'd drop that site in a hot minute. But when they said they would add to it, I assumed they meant getting all of the old stuff archived, and adding anything new from the shows, movies, or books and/media. If I'm wrong I'm gonna FREAK OUT! Because it's wrong to make up new stuff!

This is from the original welcome page:

Welcome to the Vulcan Language Institute site! This site is the ongoing process of work I began 25 years ago. This organization began as informal discussions amongst fans in the 1970's and took shape as a group in 1980. Over the years, nearly 45 people have participated in one way or another. My original intention was to publish our materials in a format similar to Marc Okrand's 1985 edition of The Klingon Dictionary. We discovered Paramount Pictures and Pocket Books apparently consider the Klingon language interest a fluke and will not give much support to other Star Trek languages. This is too bad, since we have seen that there is clear fan support for Vulcan, Romulan, Cardassian, Bajoran, and even Ferengi languages. This site is presently the only way we have to expose interested fans to our work. Our organization continues to evolve now that we are no longer a "private" group.

Now according to this, it started out as a group effort that he eventually turned into a book about 30 years later and from the date of his book (just looked it up) perhaps he did get permission some time around 2003-4 but this could also be why he removed the site, which means it should not have been reposted. As for why this has not become a legal issue, that's not for me to decide. I just know that I don't feel comfortable going there anymore.

[crystalswolf]

Okay, after thinking about it, I felt the need to add this in. It almost feels as though there is the idea that if someone does not guard their stories fiercely, they were never really serious about it in the first place.

As one of these people, just because I would allow (meaning my explicit permission must be obtained) someone to finish one of my fanfic stories under the right circumstances does not necessarily mean that I value my stories less than people that are more guarded with their stories. Nor does it mean that I do not take what I write seriously or that I view writing as anything other than an art form.

I see each fanfic story I write the way I see my daughter. Each is a part of me and therefore a part of my soul, but never fully belonged to me. And I must always judge carefully which circumstances are the right circumstances to let go and how much. And this also does not mean I would give permission to every lunatic that came a callin' either. Believe me, there are people that I would never let near the mentioning of my characters much less a full story.

But we all have our views on this subject and obviously some more different than others.

I hope this was coherent. I'm up way past my bedtime.

[panyasan]

I can understand your point of view, CW and thank you for sheding a different light on the subject. My own reaction is the same as a lot of other writers already expressed: I don't want any one to finish a fic of mine.

The idea seems charming at first: you really like a story and are unhappy it isn't finished. So why not try to contact the writer or if that's not possible to finish it yourself?

Only as a writer - like Misplaced so greatly described - you put your heart, soul, sweat, energy, time in your fic. It is your intellectual propierty.

If you really want to honor a writer - try to create your own story.

Two experiences confirmed my opinion on this subject.

- Once I had a premise about a humorous rewrite of a certain episode of ENT. Any way, some one else wrote a story with sort of the same premise. It only had such a different atmosphere and humour then I would have used that I had a hard time liking the story. Imagine some one using my premise on a story I already have written, but didn't finish. The result would be the same.

- I also have written a scene in one of my stories where I use a certain image to convey a certain strong emotion. When I wrote that scene, I was experiencing that emotion and I desribed what I was feeling at that moment. After I published that scene, I have read two stories in which a similair image and wording was used. The second time I blinked when I read the scene, because it looked so much on my own scene in its wording. Of course we sometimes don't remember where we get our inspiration from and when the writer of that second story got a compliment because of the scene, the writer said he/she got it from a book he/she was reading. I only know that for me it didn't feel right. I have used situations of other fics in my stories, but I did pm the writers beforehand, asking them if I could intergrate their situation into my story.
(Frankly I don't know if some one would pm me about using a scene like the one I mentioned above, if I would give permission.)

[Alelou]

I would think that if anything really was using very similar wording to what you did, you should feel free to bring it up to the admins. I wouldn't be shocked at all to see that happen, especially by young writers. And a story that plagiarizes should be pulled down.

There's an interesting NYTimes article I use in my classes about the younger generation thinking, because it's all out there on the web, that you can just cut and paste happily. (Okay, I also like it because it's written by a guy named Trip.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/educa ... WuMOUkxlmw

Having said that, I do think that when it comes to romantic situations between characters, there's nothing absolutely new under the sun. Sometimes it's easy to look at something in a plot or an encounter and think ... hey, I did that. It's part of the reason most TV shows won't even look at scripts from people outside without a legal disclaimer attached -- they're too used to people trying to sue them for using their ideas, because ideas often do duplicate other ideas.

Almost word for word, though? For more than a line or two? Something more original than "I love you"? That never happens.

[panyasan]

I know it is very hard to be original in a romantic story and if you read a lot of TnT stuff it is bound to happen it will influence your own writing on some level. The example I was refering to was only two or three lines in a long story, but I did find the wording very similiar. However, I can imagine that the people in the book (which was the inspiration according to the writer) have the same experience as me. It was more an example what you can feel if you have the feeling someone is using your stuff without asking.

As for the new generation: I did learn in college to name your source if you use a source in a paper. I have read books that have more pages with notes then the orginal thoughts of the writers. (I like notes: very interesting stuff). But I have noticed that a lot of people of the younger generation sees everything on the net as something they can use without naming the source.

[Alelou]

Oh yes, many do. "Why can't I cut or paste a sentence or two if it makes my paper sound more professional?" they'll say.



In my experience, more than half of them -- sometimes even some very capable students -- still need to be taught all this in college. So personally I just look at their minor plagiarism as a teaching opportunity. Major plagiarism, like whole papers ... ugh, that's another matter. But those students seldom make it through the semester anyway.

[Linda]

I always try to credit a source, even just for the vaguest of inspirations. And always to give a source for a quote!

I know a few people have said that they don't read other people's stories because they are afraid they might unconsciously will use wording from someone else's story. I would feel mortified if I had found I had done that myself! But I love to read other people's stories too much to stop reading them! And I do think that writers inspire each other by reading each other's work. And that can help keep the creativity rolling. But deliberate plagerism is something I don't understand. How can people feel proud of something they have stolen and called their own? What satisfation can they get from that?

[Thot]

If we were talking about borrowing an acquaintance's car if they couldn't be found to get permission from, it would be a no-brainer that one has to assume the answer is no.

If we were talking about borrowing a roommate's sweater for a date and you couldn't track them down to ask, most people would agree that, again, you must assume the answer is no. (This isn't accounting for situations where close friends have a "help yourself" agreement; this is about situations where you don't know going in what the answer will be.)

Why does the object in question being a piece of fan literature change the answer?

Because we are talking on the level of ideas and stories and not about an corporal thing.

I mean we are so used to use other peoples "ideas" day by day that we don't even realize it anymore. Or did anybody of us ever pay for the use of a "icon" or a "link"? Just think about it: Somebody has to be the inventor of the "link". But do we ask the inventor every time we want to click to another site? Do the ones in charge of this site ask for permission? Do we pay for the use of his/their invention?

NO, we don't.

Because you don't have a claim on an idea; you only have the claim on the form/design/enbodiment of an idea.

Where the line is between these things is open to discussion. But you can be sure, if you could patent everything (for example all software) then this would mean the end of every free ware programm in the internet or every non-commercial site. Just imagine what would happen to this forum on triaxiansilk.com if this would be applied.


Now concerning the "carrying on somebody elses work" idea: Don't do it. It is simply unrespectful without their permission.

An alternative would be to copy the basical idea of an abandonned story, to write your own version and then to carry on. There is always your own take on stories and I don't see the problem to use some pieces of a dialogue of other authors, as long as you make obvious that those pieces are quotes.

This is a delicate subject and you can only make it right, if you stay always respectful.

Concerning Zero Gray's 'Objects in Motion' (the forth post):

Objects is unlikely ever to be finished, but the post-Terra Prime story is moving along recently. I've got several more chapters written with a few details yet to work out. Fortunately for my career (but unfortunately for those who like my Trip/T'Pol stories), I'm just really busy with other, non-Trek writing. I have been keeping up with all of the great stories being posted here, at FF.net and elsewhere, and I'm really enjoying them!

Date: Sun Jan 11, 2009


Two personal question: Are these 'unfinished stories' mentioned above anywhere to be found? (for example Objects in Motion)

Has anybody an idea about the last chapters of Samantha Quinn's 'Alternatives'? The last comment you can find is this: [June 30, 2007] Samantha Quinn has finished Alternatives but informs us that she is working on revising the final three chapters and cannot give a date when they will be ready. It may be quite a while.

But deliberate plagerism is something I don't understand. How can people feel proud of something they have stolen and called their own? What satisfation can they get from that?

They don't take satisfaction out of taking away from other people. They are happy about the attention and recognition of other people they get because the work. I think "to adorn oneself with borrowed plumes" fits perfectly to explain it, since it points more on the 'adorn oneself' than the beauty of the borrowed plumes itself.

[Silverbullet]

I am not in any danger of someone wanting to finish one of my stories. However, If I should ever come up with some tidbit (such as Trip having a bank card from a Quadrant wide bank that could be used on many planets) if someone else wanted to use that I would be honored. Not that it is that good and may not be original as I have not read every damned fanfic written but you can understand what I mean. A gimick is not a story but one that could be used in antoher story for effect or to help the story along. Why not have it be public property.

A whole story is one thing but what I am describing is another.

Am I making nay sense

SB

[aadarshinah]

I get what you mean, SB. Some things are memes that just take over the genre. Like Lt. Hess's first name being Anna - I don't know who started that and it's def not cannon, but it's become such an integeral part of the fandom that very few people chose not to call her Anna, or Anne, or some variation thereof, regardless of their charectoration of her.

Viral ideas. Very Dawkins.

[crystalswolf]

SB, the point (at least my point) was that it's okay if you're okay with someone using your material. But not all authors would feel that way and their reactions could be anywhere from a casual shrug to cursing you out for just suggesting.

Also that no one should take for granted that their reaction and feeling about this is the same as another author's.

aadarshinah, I think that is an example of how someone, somewhere didn't credit from where they took the idea (the broken link in the chain). Now the original person could be okay with it or livid that their original idea had been passed around like old clothes.

Yet another reason why I do not like coming up with something only to find out it's similar to someone else's idea. People have such varying reactions to things like this, so coming late to the party I always feel like something I've written has already been done.

[pdsldl]

Alelou is right younger writers seem to think it's okay to steal someone elses's work. I've read several stories where scenes seemed very familiar and if I've taken them and searched the internet they pop up in different stories. Some published works by real life writers.

I know I've used others ideas and maybe sometimes exact words but never intentionally without credit. But this involves only ideas or a sentence or two that I'm not aware of because ideas or situation pop into my head but I only get a vague idea of where it came from or sometimes I have no recollection that I read it somewhere else. I have no problem with someone taking something from my stories and using it if they wish because I'm borrowing from the writers of TV shows to start with so how can I complain if someone does the same to me? I usually write in my disclaimer that if I do that and someone takes offense they should let me know and if I find that I may have I have no problem with giving them credit but they should take it as a compliment that something they wrote left such a strong impression with me.

I don't usually stop using sites that seem to be plagiarizing but I have on occasion made an effort to notify the original owner of material, if it involves a large segment of someone else's work, if I can and let them take whatever action they wish. If I stopped using all the sites guilty of this it would limit my access to some things I need and besides I feel it's not my responsibility to police others actions. If one of my stories showed up rewritten by someone or finished by another writer I'd contact them and ask that they give credit and then let it go. If they chose to ignore my request or say no then unless there's a third party who runs the site there's not really anything to be done.