What if the crew had remembered the events of "Twilight"?

[aadarshinah]

Agree. If Archer was more normal-human-being rather than future-aided, can-do-no-wrong Übermensch, I could see where people were coming from from AinT. But you can't have uber-captain pair up with the what-else-can-we-throw-at-her Vulcan commander and expect it to work...

The big problem with the reset button, in my opinion, is that, in the end, it does nothing for charecter development, which we would have at least seen if the crew (or even a select few, such as differently-minded Vulcans and involved-captains) had remembered even a bit of it. Or experienced even a strong sense of deja vu about one thing or another.

Le sigh. I think the real problem is that there is no consistancy. If they ever make a new ST series, the writers need to seriously sit down before hand, write up a list of things from previous treks to keep as cannon, that they can never violate, and stick to it. they need to plan out their story arc and learn from the past. Like that article someone posted the other day, the "veiwer's guide to 20 syfy series". For ENT, DS9, and TNG they suggested skipping the first two seasons. For VOY, the first three (minus the season finale). For TOS, the third season. The writers need to look at the stories in those seasons they suggested skipping and make sure not to write stories like those, or make the same mistakes in them. Do that, and you potentionally have a wonderful new trek without the growing pains of the others...

[honeybee]

Well it can be the same for people when they are made to feel stupid or like a trouble-maker just for disliking something. Even people who don't like episodes, plot developments, or TPTB and the writing staff's choices care about the show, and the main reason we're all here. TnT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Otherwise they would not bother to be here or write at all! So I'd say what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Actually, no. This is a fansite. Fans of the show should feel comfortable here. Constructive criticism, articulately expressed is welcome, however, constant bashing of the show, its creators and its cast is rude to fans of the show and does nothing more than drive away fans that would otherwise contribute to the community. It might be difficult for some to understand, but some TnT fans do not hate Archer, do not hate 90% of the show and do not want to feel attacked or sneered at if they express these opinions. The new rules are clear, no show bashing. Again, as Aquarius put it, sometimes its not what you think but how you say it. But there's been a consistent problem on this site of show bashers driving away fans with their nastiness. It stops now. This is and will remain a safe place for fans.

Disliking an aspect of the show is fine. Show bashing is trouble making and against the rules. Period.

If anyone has any questions about this, feel free to pm one of your humble moderators. Again, we have no desire to stifle good conversation or lively debate. Just the opposite. We want everyone to feel comfortable expressing their opinions. If your post is substantive and respectful, you'll be fine. If your post is mean, rude or designed to hurt others, you'll start getting warnings.

[Aquarius]

The big problem with the reset button, in my opinion, is that, in the end, it does nothing for charecter development, which we would have at least seen if the crew (or even a select few, such as differently-minded Vulcans and involved-captains) had remembered even a bit of it. Or experienced even a strong sense of deja vu about one thing or another.

I think this echoes many people's sentiments. Honestly, I'm not all offended by reset button episodes. Some have, in my opinion, been artfully done. But as a plot device it's over-used, and you're right: there's never anything really *at stake*, because it all gets erased. There are no consequences for anything that happens before the button gets pushed. That's why I liked E2, because even though there is speculation that Lorian and his ship no longer exist, the crew remembered them and everything that happened. T'Pol remembers the conversation with her future self, and it's food for thought. Trip has a glimmer of hope where she's concerned--in one timeline, they have a son to show for it. Not that it did a lot of good in their immediate situation--wherever the relationship was going, it got derailed by the Koss thing--but the seed at least had been planted, and it wouldn't have been if the E2 had ceased to exist even in their memories.

[Thot]

Personally I don't have so much problems with "reset button" episodes, because they allow to really toy with the figures without wrecking the whole character for the rest of the series.

Therefore two things:

1) We are here on a fanfiction site, where the huge majority of the writings are based on Alternative Universes or completely Out of Character acting. And why do you write something like this? Because it's an experiment you like to play out for once, without ever expecting to actually see something like that on the series. That's the reason why I regard "reset button" episodes as the series form of fan fiction.
That this can be written either poorly or well is obvious.

2) Does this add to the developement of the figure? No.
But can it be used to expose/underline aspects of a character, which wouldn't be seen if it wasn't for the 'push comes to shove' attitude of some "reset button" episodes? Yes.

For example Trip's behaviour in 'Twilight': This is actually a good case to show how bitter he could get if he hasn't T'Pol around to put him together after Lizzie's death, symbolized by his unwillingness to jump at the opportunity to eradicate the parasite from Archer's brain when the Xindi come. The "normal" Trip probably would have so much faith in Archer that curing him would rescue all of them, but after the experience of the Twilight universe he has lost his enthusiasm/optimism.
Some might say: "So what? This still isn't Trip Tucker of the series!"
Well, sometimes you can understand something better by looking at the "negative" of a figure. Making the outlines sharper by more contrast to it.

And that's also the reason why the idea of mixing the character's of AUs with the RU into one person end up with either a blurred mixture of two similar but not identical personalities (worst case even schizophrenia) or you have to establish something basically new apart from both before. Something like a character rewrite in one episode.
I think I don't have to write any further to make obvious, how dreadful this can get.

I hope I make any sense here.

[enterprikayak]

In Forgotten Time, I made it a reset button that slowly leaked thru.

[honeybee]

Running to check out "Forgotten Time" -

[enterprikayak]

lol, I wrote that start of that one when the show was still on.

It's here, in case u have trouble finding it:

http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/fi ... time.shtml

http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/fi ... haya.shtml

[honeybee]

As for reset buttons in general, I agree that they were overused. But Yesterday's Enterprise is my favorite TNG episode - and it's a reset. So, when done well, the concept is really compelling. They can almost be viewed as fanfic for pro writers - allowing them to play with whatifs not permitted in the regular timeline. Joss Whedon admitted this in the whole "What if Buffy had never come to Sunnydale?" episode that gave us vampire Willow and Xander.

The Visitor is a seminal DS9 episode, and its consequences thread through the rest of the series - even though Sisko is the only one who remembers.

In Yesterday's Enterprise, I remember how subtle the changes in Data were - he didn't have the time to work on his humanity, one can assume, so he's more robotic than in the RU. It's just a subtle touch.

And as Thot points out, Trip is a lot tougher in the Twilight timeline than in the RU - without T'Pol and with Earth's destruction - his bigotry against the Xindi is allowed to flourish. He's a much harder, colder person than the RU Trip. It's not explained, but CT's performance really allows this to flower.

[Misplaced]

Personally I generally have no issue with reset buttons. I think that my interpretation on whether an episode is good or not is pretty simplistic -- does it entertain me or not? Reset buttons don't really thrust me automatically into the "not" side of the question, so it makes no real difference to me.

And I do think, honeybee, that you pointed out something interesting. They do give us an opportunity to understand "what if" and see how the characters might have evolved had things happened differently. It's an intriguing notion. I might rewatch the episode with that in mind and see if I feel more entertained by it.

[justTripn]

I agree with Thot. Empirically it seems to be that I love "reset button" stories. These episodes are among my favorite Star Trek episodes. In the case of "Twilight," we got to see exactly what was at stake in the fight against the Xindi. We got to see Trip as a Captain, we got to see T'Pol being domestic. The Archer character was in a facinating predicament. He did save T'Pol and his injury resulted from that. Sure he was a pain in the butt, but through no fault of his own. I thought it was nice how T'Pol took care of him. She was trying to do the right thing.

[honeybee]

As someone who deals with a loved one with a brain injury that causes memory issues, I can attest that memory problems are frustrating for both the person who has them and the care-giver. My Dad, who lives in a brain injury nursing home, does not remember things like his parents being dead or that I live in Philadelphia - so he will often demand to see me or see his parents. I can at least call him, but there's not much his care givers can do about his demands to see his long-deceased parents but evade.

One of the things I liked about Twilight was it did articulate how frustrating T'Pol found Archer's illness. And I can't imagine what it would be like to "remember" spending years in such a dependent/annoying state for someone who is such an alpha personality like Archer.

[Alelou]

I guess I should say I still enjoyed "Twilight" but I do find it frustrating when characters don't have the information we have -- especially something this important, which could show them where their choices went wrong. I agree that Trip looked bitter and hard and just plain emotionally exhausted, T'Pol struck me as miserable, and Archer had lost any hope for effectiveness or growth. The whole thing was convincingly hellish, so from that point of view it did raise the stakes for the rest of the season.

I also can't stand the way Super!Archer survives multiple fatal shots to pull yet another lever and save the day. He's like a freaking' Jack-in-the-Box. They needed to take at least one of those OUT.

I would also find Soval and Phlox's comments to T'Pol really irritating, except that Blalock handled them just the way I'd want from a TnT point of view, radiating a sort of private disgust (or maybe that's just how I choose to see it). But the writer definitely was pushing hard on his creepy love story there.

Anyway, I was procrastinating other work so I went ahead and wrote an AU coda to my missing scene with Archer remembering, too -- and Trip realizing what's up. It'll go up eventually, but under its own title since it splits off from canon pretty decisively. I just wanted to see how these three characters would react.

[WarpGirl]

About reset button episodes. I'm not sure I'd say there was nothing at stake, because if I remember correctly (because it's been a while since I gave much thought to it) the characters usually have to take some form of action to cause the reset. Like Kes tried to do in Before and After. Not that it worked in her case. Did it work differently in Twilight?

[aadarshinah]

I dunno. But no matter how good the episode is, no matter all the cool stuff that may happen, I always feel a little giped if no one remembers anything at all about them after the reset. Kinda like, "if this is a story of Enterprise's/Voyager's/Deep Space Nine's crew and their adventures and no one remembers this adventure, how am I watching an episode about it?"

Though, with respects to "Twilight," I think there's just too much of the stuff generally dislike in ENT episodes for me to be fully objective about it as a reset episode.

[Silverbullet]

Much as I hate to. I have to get the DVD out and view this Episode so I can deal with it with some knowledge.

What put me off in the first place was the interview with Sussman and his claim that it was a AinT love story. But fter reading Dusk and this thread it seems to have more in the Episode than that. Even that seems to have been cut down.

The things I do for this series. I love the TnT characters so much.