What if the crew had remembered the events of "Twilight"?

[WarpGirl]

Every interview I read said he liked the chemistry between Jolene Blalock and Scott Bakula and thought that SF's first super Captain and Vulcan should be the first inter-spieces couple. You know since in the sixties Spock was a guy, and it was the sixties, and Star Trek isn't like that show Torchwood. Who really knows? ST is not famous for liking the cast and crew speaking their minds. Just ask Patrick Stewert and La'Var Burton.

It's probably for the best that the whole crew didn't remember - like everyone said, tramatic, and even the writers couldn't seem to find a way to make it work....

I don't see how anyone could have done it. Not even Gene Rodenberry himself, or DC Fontana.

But, it does make me think that, if it was just Phlox, Archer, and T'Pol at the end, then those three remembering would have been interesting to see... Then you could have had the whole Archer/T'Pol dynamic (which, I would hope, would have led only to some akward attempts on Archer's part to initate something, which would have sent T'Pol running to Trip), and possibly Phlox trying to play TnT matchmaker after seeing how unhappy T'Pol was in the "Twilight"-verse.

Well I like the idea of Plox getting a clue. Especially because I hated when they wrote him to be so dense, although actually he was only telling the audience what they originally wanted us to go with. Namely Archer is like Superman and AinT is the pairing to root for.

I always assmued T'pol didn't know bonds existed until she read the Kir'Shara. Old T'Pol never had the chance to read it. So she probably had no clue. Because she and her Trip were never separated because Trip never went to Columbia. Tthey were thrown back in time so nothing we saw later happened to them. Including no Kir'Shara.

[crystalswolf]

I have to say that when I think of the episode I think of Honeybee's "Dusk"

If they allowed the crew to remember a similar kind of back story I could definitely see it. Everyone remembering the possible future would either break them or renew their sense of purpose under the right leadership (and of course Archer would be the perfect leader in the show) Truth be told, I would have expected more of a pessimistic attitude among the crew around mid-season because they were stuck in the middle of no where getting their rears handed to them constantly.

This would have even created a perfectly smooth path for TnT in Harbinger as well, I think.

[Alelou]

I could understand that if you're a red-blooded male who identifies more with Archer/Bakula than Trip/Trinneer and thinks Jolene is hot, you'd probably ship for A/T rather than for T/T. Similarly, if you're a female who thinks Archer is hotter than Trip, you'd probably ship in that direction (unless, say, you also hate T'Pol, and then you might be an Archer/Hoshi shipper).

This is how I explain still thinking Hermione should end up with Harry despite all evidence to the contrary. I identify with Hermione and it blows my mind that she can't SEE that Harry is WAAAAAAY cuter and braver and kinder than RON.

What I don't understand is, say, a hetero female deciding to ship for Malcolm/Trip... where the hell is THAT coming from? And yet there are people in that category too. I have a straight female friend who used to write Mulder/Krycek XF fic. I still don't get it. But at least she also did Mulder/Scully.

It must be rough when you dearly hope your show is going in one direction and then it pivots and goes in another and you have to play ball, especially if you're a true fan (as Sussman certainly seems to be).

I know there's a commentary track for North Star on the DVD set. I think it's from the assistant director, though.

[honeybee]

Last night, a bunch of Geek girls and myself were Geeking out - and none of us were Twilight (vampire book) fans - but we admired the feminist Team Jacob shippers for creating their own work that suits themselves. And as for Harry Potter, I always shipped Harry/Luna - probably because I relate to Luna, despite the fact that on paper and due to my pro-science proclivities I'm more like Hermione. I think Ginny was just too perfect/popular for me to relate to. On paper, I'm more like Willow than Buffy, but I always wanted to be Buffy! I think with Luna, I related more to her oddball/outsider thing that specifically her loopy belief in tabloids.

Thanks for the Dusk shout out, CW. At first, I thought it would really be unnatural to shoehorn a TnT story into that episode. But so much time passes and so much is left to the imagination - it actually came more naturally than I thought.

[Alelou]

I really enjoyed "Dusk." I also love Escriba's very gritty short story set in that universe -- "A World Without Consequences." Those two fics are reason enough to be thankful that episode exists. Sometimes the episodes you hate the most generate the most interesting fics. (If you ask me, the fics are the ONLY reason to like the MU episodes.)

[Silverbullet]

I got the idea that if sussman coudn't have A/T'Pol he was going to make it difficult for a TnT. He did write Home and he sure as Hell tried to put paid to TnT in that episode.

I could never se any chemistry between Jolene and Bakkula. Not the same chamistry that Jolene and Conner had everytime they wre on screen together. Even that Kissing scene in ANIS didn't give off any chemistry. Jolene looked as if she was simply acting a part with no enthurisasm. When she kissed Trip it looked as if she meant it.

Of course I am biased. I still belive that Bakulla, while a good enough actor, was a little long in the tooth to be playing the Dashing Hero. Certainly every effort was made to have him LOOK the part. He lightig, camera angles. spots to stand, Make up. Even that Hat he wore in North Star was designed to make Bakkula look Heroic.

RE the bond, it existed before T'Pol read Kirshira. T'Pol was aware of it in Bound and it first manifested itself when Trip was daydreaming on the Columbia. So the Old T'Pol and her Trip would have become aware of it too in time

[Alelou]

Both those episodes came after the discovery of Kir'Shara. WarpGirl's point stands -- she and Trip might have had the bond in the E2 'verse without ever understanding what it was.

[aadarshinah]

Aadarshinah, I can guess that Sussman at least had been given reason to believe that Archer/T'Pol was going to be pursued before he wrote Twilight. TnT shipper or not, you'd have to be blind not to see that they were playing with the idea in Season 2 then scrapped it in Season 3 for TnT, which was the right decision. On the Twilight commentary, he admits that Twilight is an A/T love story and that he was surprised that people liked the episode so much, given that TnT had become popular when it aired and fans were embracing that romance. I don't recall him saying why he shipped A/T in the first place.

Yeah, I saw it, was just curious as to the reasoning. As SB said, Archer and T'Pol never seemed to have the chemsitry. But, then again, I am a huge TnT fan and think that Trip and T'Pol's arguement on the bridge in "Broken Bow, Pt 2" practicually screamed future torrid love affair, and couldn't really see why the writers went to all the trouble of setting that (and the infamous decon scene) in the first episode only to turn it around and try to go with a different ship the second season.... But, then again, I've never been a fan of love triangles, in any form.

If they allowed the crew to remember a similar kind of back story I could definitely see it. Everyone remembering the possible future would either break them or renew their sense of purpose under the right leadership (and of course Archer would be the perfect leader in the show) Truth be told, I would have expected more of a pessimistic attitude among the crew around mid-season because they were stuck in the middle of no where getting their rears handed to them constantly.

Agree. But maybe there was and we just weren't seeing it, as ST has always revolved around the command crew. But we do see Archer go into that dark, torture-not-so-innocent-aliens, steal-warp-coils-from-more-innocent-aliens, "heroically"-sacrifice-himself place in the third season. And Trip was in his own uber-dark place because of his sister, and T'Pol even resorted to trellium.... if that was the state of the top three officers, I imagine the rest of the crew was pretty dark as well in those days, even if we don't get to see it.

[WarpGirl]

Well I cannot believe Grissom and Sara from CSI ever happened, talk about a train wreck! And yes I admit George Eads being a total stud 10 years ago had something to do with it. HOWEVER my ship motivation has always been do the 2 characters balance each other out. Do their strengths make up for each other's weaknesses. If the answer is yes, I ship. If the answer is no, I don't care how hot they are, or if I like the actors or not. I will not ship for a couple. I think Grissom was pretty hot too, but he should not have married Sara. Same thing for AinT... Sure they're good-looking people... But the characters don't balance out. TnT do.

I am also a huge fan of Dusk, and I especially loved an actual fictional reason as to how the altered timelines converged, instead of "we just remember" for no appearent reason whatsoever.

[honeybee]

Yeah, I saw it, was just curious as to the reasoning. As SB said, Archer and T'Pol never seemed to have the chemistry. But, then again, I am a huge TnT fan and think that Trip and T'Pol's argument on the bridge in "Broken Bow, Pt 2" practically screamed future torrid love affair, and couldn't really see why the writers went to all the trouble of setting that (and the infamous decon scene) in the first episode only to turn it around and try to go with a different ship the second season.... But, then again, I've never been a fan of love triangles, in any form.

I agree. I believe I said aloud to friend when Broken Bow aired - "well, we know those two are going to f**k, eventually." Crazy that it took 2 1/2 seasons eventually. I shipped TnT from the pilot. I believe B&B have said that originally, and I've said this before, TnT were going to provide the ship board romance a'la Riker & Troi from the pilot on and Archer would be kept free for alien babes of the week. They decided to pull back on that and see where chemistry led them, though the decon scene and the flirting/bickering remained. In the second season, they flipped and they decided to play with A/T and decided that didn't work and went back to TnT in season 3, which was the right choice.

I actually love love triangles, though. And I always thought it was odd that Archer barely reacted when the two people he was closest to hooked up. Even if he wasn't interested in T'Pol, he should have had a reaction of some kind more than what we saw.

[Misplaced]

I could understand that if you're a red-blooded male who identifies more with Archer/Bakula than Trip/Trinneer and thinks Jolene is hot, you'd probably ship for A/T rather than for T/T. Similarly, if you're a female who thinks Archer is hotter than Trip, you'd probably ship in that direction (unless, say, you also hate T'Pol, and then you might be an Archer/Hoshi shipper).

Alright, I'm just gonna come right out and say it. I was one of those people who watched the Decon scene in Broken Bow and rolled my eyes. Ugh. I even went back and watched it again with my shipper goggles on and still laughed at the gratuitousness of it all. LOL Too overt for me. Also, I watched initially for Scott Bakula until the boring writing of the first season turned me off of the show.

(Thank heavens I decided to take a gander again at the end of season 3 starting with "Countdown" and followed through season 4, where at "Home" I started shipping TnT -- and I've never shipped for a tv couple, ever, before. I ain't the romantic type -- probably explains why I prefer to write MU stuff. )

Trip initially was way too pretty boy for me. I don't like pretty boys. I don't get why gals (and gay men) are gaga over the likes of Brad Pitt. I mean I get it in my head. I can see he's good looking but he does nothing for me. Trip came across as the token pretty boy and I am always, always turned off by that vibe.

But, I've never seen A/T. Not ever. Even when I went back and watched the entire series from beginning to end. There is no chemistry. But I do very much lean Archer/Hoshi. The only time I get to play with that is in the MU and then they don't really love each other. LOL It is a leaning, though, not an outright 'ship for me.

Now I love Trip. I totally love him because Connor did such a good job of making him likeable and down to earth. And he fell in love with one of my favorite Vulcans. And they are very balanced, like WarpGirl said.

As to the topic... Twilight is okay episode. It was obvious to me that the writer wanted some A/T hints in there, but I find it utterly disturbing that there could be any hint of romance considering his condition. I think E2 was far, far better. Thank goodness they got the pairing right with that one.

Now I'm off to read the fics listed here...

[aadarshinah]

I actually love love triangles, though. And I always thought it was odd that Archer barely reacted when the two people he was closest to hooked up. Even if he wasn't interested in T'Pol, he should have had a reaction of some kind more than what we saw.

Whatever interest I had in reading love triangles petered out after having to deal with my classmate's Team Edward/Team Jacob thing over the years. Forgive me if I sound incredibly bitter here, but if you're lucky enough to have two people intently romantically interested in you, I just can't feel sorry for you if your torn to bits trying to choose between them. Maybe it's a poor comparison, but it's like telling a person dying of thirst how hard it is to choose between two different beverages, with both drinks in front of you.

But, yeah, you'd think he'd have at least a "well, finally" reaction or something. The fact that we really don't get a reaction really sinches it for me that an Archer/T'Pol relationship never would have worked out. I mean, even if somebody's gotten over the fact that a relationship can't/won't/didn't work out, if they were emotionally invested in that relationship, there should still be some reaction to the fact that that someone is seeing someone else, particularly your best friend. But, since we don't see any, I can only guess that those feelings were never partiularly strong or long-lasting...

Though, if they were going for a Kirk-style babe-of-the-week thing for Archer, they really kinda failed. I mean, yes, he had his flings, but it was more on a monthly basis, I would say...

[WarpGirl]

You know Honeybee I do believe you. But I could swear that in my very last Star Trek magazine (from when I had a subscription when ENT was just starting) they said that they were Hoping AinT but CT was so much more than they anticipated. So they decided it would be a toss up and the decision would be made in later seasons. Now what you read may have been more recent. But that's what my copy said. Of course, this was when ENT first aired. So please don't kill the messenger. TPTB have been known to change their stories after the fact.

Case in point, VOY and Homecoming, and the dreaded 7of9/Chakotay ship... J/C'ers were promised something very different.

Alright, I'm just gonna come right out and say it. I was one of those people who watched the Decon scene in Broken Bow and rolled my eyes. Ugh. I even went back and watched it again with my shipper goggles on and still laughed at the gratuitousness of it all.

I AM NOT ALONE!!!!!!!!

until the boring writing of the first season turned me off of the show.

You are my hero!

I came back simply because of a long illness and I got most of the 1st season again and decided I had to fix the mess.

[honeybee]

[url]You know Honeybee I do believe you. But I could swear that in my very last Star Trek magazine (from when I had a subscription when ENT was just starting) they said that they were Hoping AinT but CT was so much more than they anticipated.[/url]

Oh Warpgirl, you are not required to believe a word I say. You see, I love the show, despite its flaws. You hate the show and say so every chance you get, dancing on its grave and whatever. We are going to interpret things differently. And, as for people and what they say in interviews, they often say different things depending on audience/mood. Its a frustration of journalists.

[WarpGirl]

OK See I don't hate the show the way people think I do. I'm disappointed in the show. I hate DS9! I refuse to watch DS9 under any and all circumstances. That's hate. My feelings for ENT is like Worf when K'Ehleyr died. A "I hate this what a waste why oh god why????" kind of hate. Not a I hate this show like broccoli hate.