What if the crew had remembered the events of "Twilight"?

[Alelou]

In his comments on my missing scene for this episode -- which has T'Pol remembering that alternate timline of events, though she's not sure if it's a dream or what -- SilverBullet mentions that the writer, Mike Sussman, had wanted the whole crew to remember, but this was vetoed.

I wanted T'Pol to remember them for reasons that are fairly obvious in my scene, but what if EVERYBODY did? How would this have changed the dynamics for the rest of the season?

Interesting question, so I thought I'd open a thread.

(My own feeling is that the showrunners were right to say no to that idea -- remembering all that would have been traumatic for the crew and real mess in terms of their interpersonal dynamics -- especially between Archer, T'Pol and Trip -- and that season was already dark enough. Not to mention that everyone would have freaked out if Archer so much as sneezed, let alone went on an away mission.)

[Silverbullet]

Went on an away mission? With who?

I belvieve this would have thrown a monkey wrench into Harbinger. T'Pol and Archer remembering the twelve years she nursed him and perhaps thinking they had established a relationship. Where does that leave Trip? Where would cole fit in now?

[WarpGirl]

OK I admit it I skipped Twilight however, I think that explaining HOW they all remembered what happened was beyond that particular writing staff's capablities. I'm not sure Aaron Sorkin or Matt Nix could do it, even with Robbie McNeill's brilliance as a director. Best to know your limits. However I don't think it would have made much of a difference. TnT would still have been a mess, Archer would still have been crazy, and they still would have prevailed somehow.... It's Star Trek, it can't happen any other way.

[honeybee]

Sussman wrote Twilight as the episode where Archer and T'Pol fell in love. They did not fall in love during the Twilight timeline, but the memories of her devotion to him sparked the romance. When TnT became the plan for Season 3, Sussman thought the episode would be scrapped and he was bummed because he liked the story. The crew not remembering made it possible for them to continue with the TnT romance and still have Twilight. I'm not 100% sure, but I think only Archer remembered in that first draft.

I agree with you Alelou, that the crew remembering Twilight - since they all died in that timeline - would be quite traumatic for them, never mind Earth being destroyed and all their friends and family dying. And Archer was under enough pressure as it was in Season 3, remembering the events of Twilight might have caused him to crack up, rather than fall in love with T'Pol - realistically speaking. His importance in that timeline may have caused him to second guess his decision to sacrifice himself in Azati Prime, which might have mucked up the eventual truce with the "good" Xindi.

As far as the TnT romance, I'd like to think that they would be sad enough at its end, so that they would want to work thinks out in the RU. I liked how you played it in your missing scene, since T'Pol playing Florence Nightingale should have made her sad and not fulfilled. Being a nurse is a wonderful calling, but it's not her calling. I never objected to Twilight because it was supposed to be a sad/wrong timeline - where things didn't go right. It was an unhappy turn of events that she used all her talents to be a nursemaid and Archer's "you'd make a good nurse" comment was intended to be irritating for her. So, whatever the original intentions of the first draft, I think that what we say onscreen - if it were remembered by TnT, might have drawn them together.

[panyasan]

As far as the TnT romance, I'd like to think that they would be sad enough at its end, so that they would want to work thinks out in the RU. I liked how you played it in your missing scene, since T'Pol playing Florence Nightingale should have made her sad and not fulfilled. Being a nurse is a wonderful calling, but it's not her calling. I never objected to Twilight because it was supposed to be a sad/wrong timeline - where things didn't go right. It was sad that she used all her talents to be a nursemaid and Archer's "you'd make a good nurse" comment was intended to be irritating for her. So, whatever the original intentions of the first draft, I think that what we say onscreen - if it were remembered by TnT, might have drawn them together.

I was thinking the same thing. If you know what possible loss you will suffer, makes you more deteminite to prevent that loss. As for T'Pol playing nurse: I think I wouldn't mind so much, if it had been an act of love. It wasn't: there wasn't a love relationship between Archer and T'Pol and it looked more like T'Pol acted from a huge guilt complex. (BTW I think there would be other logical ways to solve her guilt). Besides, any relationship between them would be futile and somewhat icky - Archer forgets presents events very quickly, so he wouldn't know anything their time together and he is a patient.

[Alelou]

Yeah, I'd like to think that Trip would realize he shouldn't have blamed her so harshly, and they might work harder to avoid how things turned out. However, if EVERYONE remembered, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Archer suddenly got much more seriously interested in T'Pol, and I would expect this to make things very tense between him and T'Pol and him and Trip. On the other hand, T'Pol's pretty good at squashing any suggestions Archer makes in that direction, so maybe he'd realize anything they may have had was just kind of pathetic in that other timeline and let it go.

Phlox would be a wild card, though. From my totally TnT shipper point of view, he was being spectacularly stupid about what was really going on in that episode. What if he decided to try to meddle, as he's prone to doing?

Also, it would have been ridiculous to have the crew coping with memories or discoveries from TWO alternative timelines -- Twilight and E2 -- in one season. How complicated can things get? I wouldn't be surprised, though, if playing around with the idea from Sussman led to how they handled the E2 'verse.

[WarpGirl]

Well not that I know this for sure, but I read a couple of articals with Sussman talking about this episode, and despite our TnT rose colored glasses he did say that it wasn't supposed to be Florence Nightingail syndrome T'pol and Archer supposedly were suppose to have a real relationship. Now personally, that makes me concerned for the guy, he gave Archer a condition that should make that impossible. I mean that's just the way he thought the show should go. And he kind of made his point in E2 where he had RU T'Pol shred Trip, and E2 T'Pol a widow after a mere 14 years. But can someone plese tell me how you're supposed to remember something that never happened?????????? I'm glad they forgot in Twilight I still can't figure out how they remember meeting E2 Enterprise. This is what I meant when I said Aaron Sorkin couldn't make it make sense.

[Alelou]

If we had to be scientifically plausible, Star Trek as know it couldn't exist in the first place. It's called suspension of disbelief... handy thing for enjoying most sci-fi, perhaps especially television sci-fi.

[honeybee]

Again, Sussman wrote the episode as the "Archer and T'Pol fall in love episode" and the events were to lead to a real relationship. However, according to his commentary on the episode, the final script did not have their relationship romantic in the Twilight timeline since the nature of Archer's illness would make that very ethically problematic. It's possible he wrote versions where he tried the romantic thing out, but according to his commentary (which you can download from Startrek.com), he decided not to present it that way. Anyone who has seen the episode and how the relationship manifests, would likely agree with that.

If we had to be scientifically plausible, Star Trek as know it couldn't exist in the first place. It's called suspension of disbelief... handy thing for enjoying most sci-fi, perhaps especially television sci-fi.

Yes.

Trying to think in universe, it all depends on the nature of how the timeline manifests. Worf remembers the different timelines in Parallels given the nature of the phenomena which causes him to shift through timelines. Meanwhile, in yesterday's Enterprise, only Guinan seems to even sense anything amiss. In Sussman's first script, Archer originally remembers given the nature of the parasites in his brain, but then the script was reworked so that didn't happen. I suppose it is all very nebulous, given how the physics worked. In E2, they even wonder aloud why they haven't forgotten their E2 descendants. So, the answer is, characters remember or don't remember based on whether or not writers want them to.

[Kotik]

Since I feel the urge to puke more than I can eat, whenever this AinT thing comes up, its just as well that the crew doesn't remember- Sussman's sick fantasy didn't work out and thank heavens for that.

[Alelou]

Honeybee, when I follow the links for that podcast (which does show up when I do a search at StarTrek.com), it takes me to some general page that doesn't list it at all.

I don't know what the deal is. Maybe you have to log in? I've never registered there and don't particularly wish to. I get enough spam already.

I suppose it doesn't matter -- you probably just passed along the best parts. But I do generally enjoy listening to the writers' commentary. I wonder why they didn't include that one on the DVDs. (Or did they and I just have Alzheimers?)

[WarpGirl]

I'm not talking about Scientifically plausible. I'm talking about a fictional reason other than "we just do." You know like Time distortions stick in your subconscious mind that's all.

You do have to register, and you won't get any spam.

[aadarshinah]

It's probably for the best that the whole crew didn't remember - like everyone said, tramatic, and even the writers couldn't seem to find a way to make it work.... But, it does make me think that, if it was just Phlox, Archer, and T'Pol at the end, then those three remembering would have been interesting to see... Then you could have had the whole Archer/T'Pol dynamic (which, I would hope, would have led only to some akward attempts on Archer's part to initate something, which would have sent T'Pol running to Trip), and possibly Phlox trying to play TnT matchmaker after seeing how unhappy T'Pol was in the "Twilight"-verse.

Anyone whose read the commentaries know why Sussman was so pro-Archer/T'Pol anyway? I mean, I know why most of us aren't, but why did he like it so much that he wrote this bizzare (and, in my ideal world, non-canical) episode for it? Anyone know?

[honeybee]

You can also find the commentary track on the DVD version of Twilight on the Alternative Universes set, as opposed to the series box set. I always thought it was strange that it wasn't included on the series box set, as its widely considered one of the series's best. I am registered at Startrek.com, and so it's possible you have to be registered to get it. I think I listened to the commentary by the writer of North Star via download.

Aadarshinah, I can guess that Sussman at least had been given reason to believe that Archer/T'Pol was going to be pursued before he wrote Twilight. TnT shipper or not, you'd have to be blind not to see that they were playing with the idea in Season 2 then scrapped it in Season 3 for TnT, which was the right decision. On the Twilight commentary, he admits that Twilight is an A/T love story and that he was surprised that people liked the episode so much, given that TnT had become popular when it aired and fans were embracing that romance. I don't recall him saying why he shipped A/T in the first place.

[Silverbullet]

Think I will leve the AinT alone.

e2, I have always wondered why the old T'Pol did not mention the Bond to the young T'Pol. Certainly Old T'Pol and her Trip must have had one.

I am not sure why sussman was so hot on an AinT romance. It should not have mattered. He hd to write and could have writen TnT just as easily. But then I don't understand those who love AinT