If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

[aeverett]

I rewatched 'Home' last night, particularly the scene where Koss comes to visit, and I got to wondering, would it have been a forgone conclusion that Koss would have won? I've read two fanfics where the possibility is brought up, one in T'Pol's thought on the matter, the other in Trip actually challenging Koss at the wedding, and both writers wrote with a certainty that Trip would have been killed. It would have been tantamount to suicide.

However, I thought about it last night in bed when I couldn't sleep, and I'm not so sure. Trip may have far less stregth, but the guy is in excellent shape, works in a branch of the military that recently fought a war with Xindi Reptillians, and he's recently trained extensively with Macos. Yes, Koss has training in Vulcan fighting techniques, but from what we saw of the guy and what was canon, he's a civilian archetect. He's never been in combat, and his primary familiarity with fighting, as a Vulcan male would be training with other Vulcans. Trip was trained to fight aliens who might be stronger or faster than him, even if his practice partners were mostly human. So whould it be a foregone conclusion that Trip was doomed?

There was also a possiblity of T'Pol fighting Koss herself which would give her the Vulcan stregnth, as well as Trip's advantages in combat. It may have never been done before, but T'Pol has becoming very innovative in her time among humans and has learned to 'think outside the box' as it were. She also seems to have little difficulty in breaking with Vulcan tradition when she knows tradition has become currupted, which leads me to think she might have fought him herself.

Grant it, after Koss mentions T'Les' situation, there was no way T'Pol was going to challenge, but for a few moments there, before Koss dropped the bombshell that T'Les lost her position and his father could get it back, there was an opening, and I have to wonder what would have happened if it had merely been a matter of Koss's family setting up a wedding, and T'Pol being obligated to choose.

One other question. If one of them had fought and killed Koss, speaking as a TnT fan, and considering what non-shippers would have thought, how do you feel it would have altered the characters?

[Rigil Kent]

In response to the Trip vs Koss thing, there are a number of factors not being taken into account. Yes, Koss has an inherent advantage in strength and the low oxygen content, but anyone who has been in an actual fight can tell you that strength isn't everything. When I was in high school, I observed a 120 pound nothing kick the living crap out of a 200 pound linebacker because the 120-pounder was actually trained in martial arts (judo, specifically).

Another limiting factor with Koss is that he has spent at least 60 years training on control. As a result, he's going to second guess himself which would lead to a momentary hesitation that Tucker could take advantage of. Throw in the clear arrogance of the Vulcans of that era, and that's another advantage for Trip. When was Koss last instructed in in any sort of hand-to-hand techniques? He's an architect, not a soldier or even a Starfleet type, so any training he may have had was 40 or 50 years ago. Trip, on the other hand, has just spent a year in Enemy Territory with the MACO major aboard Enterprise insisting on the officers (except Super!Archer evidently) learning HTH techniques.

Using Spock as an analogy doesn't work because A. Spock was in the grip of pon farr so he had SUPER!Strength, and B. Spock was a trained military officer so he was in much, much, much better shape than Koss.

Therefore, I don't see why everyone automatically assumes that Trip would lose. He's at least on an even playing field. As to why T'Pol didn't invoke the marriage challenge, that's easy: it wouldn't have accomplished a thing. The entire point of the marriage is to protect her mother, so if she invokes the challenge and Trip wins, her mother is still vulnerable and she's got a new enemy (Koss' family). If Trip loses, then that means he's likely dead and now she's married to the assclown who killed the man she loved. It's a lose-lose situation for her, so she picked the logical course of action that would A. Protect her Mother and B. Keep Trip alive. Her own personal Kobayashi Maru scenario, if you will...

ETA: Obviously, I've had this discussion elsewhere, eh?

[Linda]

I don't see that Trip would automatically lose either, mainly because of the reasons already mentioned here. This was extensively discussed in a thread on this or another site, but I don't know if that info is still available? Otherwise I would cite it as a resource on this subject.

Anyway, the idea of T'Pol fighting Koss I have not seen before. It's kinda like B'ellana (I know, spelling error) did with Vorik in VOY. With that canon example and Spock in Amok Time, it seems that a male Vulcan can come out of Pon Farr through the physical activity of fighting. Or was it through the shock of realizing he had 'killed' his captain, with Spock? But it does seem that a Vulcan can come out of Pon Farr another way than dying or mating.

[Shakabutt]

I agree with Rigil here ,but if it were to happen somehow ,yeah i can see Trip wooping Koss's ass .

[Rigil Kent]

Well, I also don't think that he's a shoo-in to win either. He's got enough handicaps (providing the writers actually remembers the heat, the gravity and the low oxygen content which they clearly forgot in the Vulcan Arc to make it quite difficult for him. If he intends to win, he would have to win quickly, because the longer the fight goes on, the more at a disadvantage he's at.

The interesting question to me is how would Trip react to the realization that the fight is to the death? How would it affect his relationship to T'Pol afterwards if he had been forced to kill Koss? Now that, to me, would be a fascinating thing to play with...

[CoffeeCat]

Using Spock as an analogy doesn't work because A. Spock was in the grip of pon farr so he had SUPER!Strength, and B. Spock was a trained military officer so he was in much, much, much better shape than Koss.

From Amok Time reguarding Stonn:

Kirk: Think Spock can take him?
McCoy: Not in his present condition.

Stonn was probably the equivalent of Koss, BTW.

I think it would have been neat if T'Pol did what T'Pring did.

[Rigil Kent]

I always perceived that comment to be in reference to Spock's mental condition, not his physical condition. He wasn't able to think clearly...

Not to mention, if one goes by the Vulcan arc (and actually, much of the ENT series in general), humans are easily able to defeat them in hand-to-hand combat (re: pretty much any instance where Archer knocks a Vulcan down, whether they're hopped up on trellium or on their home planet). Hence, Trip should just go up and punch Koss once in the face.

Problem solved.

What needed to happen was that Lorian showed up and T'Pol had her timelost son kick the crap out of Koss.

[CoffeeCat]

^ That would have worked

Come to think of it, I've never really seen Tuvok in hand to hand combat and then B'Elanna was able to fight Vorik pretty easily...

So what should I make of Spock kicking Kirk's @$$ all those other times like in "This Side of Paradise"...?

[Rigil Kent]

That Kirk was a lover and not a fighter? That Spock, as a half-human hybrid, didn't have the glass jaw that most Vulcans appear to have?

[CoffeeCat]

Naa. Kirk had his share of ass kicking fight sequences. I'm pretty sure he was a slugger.

[Rigil Kent]

Heh. I remember the two-handed "punch" as well as the butt attack ...

So, I guess it's that Vulcans have glass jaws. That tracks with something that Blackn'blue hypothesized a while back, I think ...

[blacknblue]

That Spock is just flat out one bad ass dude.

[CoffeeCat]

I wouldn't mess with him.

We should all get together and wrote a Spock Vs. Super!Archer spoof...

[aeverett]

What needed to happen was that Lorian showed up and T'Pol had her timelost son kick the crap out of Koss.

This is SOOOOO freaky! I had that thought about Lorian too! I mean, talk about great minds thinking alike.

Howevr, if Lorian did show up in the nick of time, there might not be an issue. Lorian was TnT's son. That might, by default give T'Pol to Trip. I'm not sure if it's canon or not, and if it's not, I'm just typing out my butt, but kids in Vulcan society come from bonded couples, not one night stands or temporary relationships. I believe Lorian's existance would make T'Pol ineligable to marry Koss, on the grounds that T'Pol already has a mate and has produced offspring with said mate. In the eyes of Vulcan, she'd already be married to Trip if Lorian's existance and parentage were proven. But then, to me, that wouldn't be a viable option for a story, as it takes away Trip and T'Pol's free will as much as T'Pol's childhood betrothal did, more so even. Trip and T'Pol need to be free to choose each other, or their conversation in 'Breaking the Ice' was meaningless. To me, the idea that marriage must be freely chosen by both parties, regardless of the reasons for said marriage, is integral to the TnT relationship, because it really began with that conversation.

[Rigil Kent]

I'm not sure that anyone on Vulcan would believe that Lorian was TnT's kid based on his age and their steadfast refusal to acknowledge time travel. It makes an interesting AU, IMO, if he shows up during Home and T'Pol sees an opportunity for an out of the marriage. Does she take it, knowing that her mother would still be in danger? Does Lorian tell Trip about the challenge? If so, how does Trip take it if T'Pol decides to not exercise that option?

I still think that an AU Home where she invokes the challenge and Trip wins the challenge would be interesting. Do Vulcans treat Tucker differently now? Do they treat T'Pol differently? How does it affect Trip, emotionally and psychologically, knowing that he killed someone for T'Pol? How does that affect their relationship? Do they keep it secret? If so, when does Archer find out (I think it'd be amusing if he does during the Vulcan arc...)

Interesting questions IMO...