If T'Pol Had Declared the Kalifee?

[Aquarius]

I see the issue as somewhere in between the both of your viewpoints, Asso and Warp Girl.

This is how Koss comes across to me: "Sorry about your mom's luck, T'Pol. But hey--why don't you undo the humiliation of calling off our wedding by going through with it like you're supposed to, and since I'm SUCH a nice guy from SUCH an upstanding family and all, my folks will do you a favor and put in a good word so your Moms can go back to work and not be humiliated the way you humiliated me."

Okay, sure, maybe he was under a lot of pressure from his parents, but please, this seems awfully opportunistic to me, on their part even if not on Koss's. If they were such great people and wanted to help that badly, they would've helped T'Les regardless; it's clear that someone in that family wanted to settle a score and when just the right bribe material presented itself, they jumped on it.

So Koss, while maybe not a snake, is definitely a weenie in my book. T'Pol certainly had more balls than he did, making a stand against the wedding earlier on and saying "It's MY life!"

Do I call this unnecessary angst? No. We're well aware of Vulcan customs regarding marriage since we saw everything Spock went through on the subject. So it's pretty obvious that T'Pol's life is gonna become problematic over it because A) she gave Vulcan tradition the finger in order to go do her own thing, and B) in the wake of this, she's come to have the hots for someone outside her own species, which we also know is going to cause quite a bit of scorn on T'Pol. It's inherent in a situation like theirs, so I don't consider it manufactured or gratuitous.

[WarpGirl]

Well I know I'm too romantic they tell me so a lot over at Kotorfanmedia. Can't help it I'm a born sap.

[Asso]

Do you know that you are gifted with endless fantasy, WarpGirl? Please, do not take wrong my words. I'm commending you. You can be the best writer I know, because you have the gift to find explanations for everything.
You're the living demonstration that it's impossible to reach the same point of view, because we, all of us, are reasoning with our heart, our brain useful only to sustain our heart reasons.
I'm tempted to reply to you, and it could be funny, but in the end, why? I don't like Koss, and I find him extremely disagreeable. This is my heart impression, anybody and anything will be able to change my impression.
This doesn't mean that I can't like stories which present him as a good guy, but for me he doesn't be so.
We are "monades", WarpGirl.
Only love, which doesn't know logic or reason and not even reasonings, can unite us.
For this, I love Trip and T'Pol.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Digging through my FAQ folder on my harddrive so I can post this, my views on the motivations of Koss, which I know I've posted before (perhaps even in this thread? ):

I have a pet theory that I've had ever since I first saw Home and the Vulcan arc.

Koss, or at least his parents, are Syrrannites. And the Syrrannites wants T'Les back at her old job at the Academy, presumably to help them dig out info on old artifacts such as the Kir'Shara from the archives or something. But even if Koss's dad is a high ranking official (a government minister or something, I don't recall exactly) he just can't put T'Les back without arousing suspicion and expose himself. He has to have a good motive that won't alert Administrator V'Las and his people. If Koss and T'Pol marry then T'Les becomes family (an in-law) and that would be legitimate enough for him to help T'Les.

In this scenario Koss doesn't even have to know the reasons. He's a dutiful son obeying his parents. And the wishes of T'Pol are of no concern. The Syrrannites must have T'Les back at the Academy. So T'Pau and Koss's dad manipulate the situation with the help of T'Les, even if T'Les gets to feel very guilty about it when she learns about the depth of TnT's feelings for each other.

This scenario would also highlight how ruthless T'Pau and the Syrrannites can be when furthering their own agenda. It would also track with the old T'Pau we saw in TOS Amok Time.

[WarpGirl]

That would work if T'Les was an archaeologist or an anthropologist but she isn't, is she? I know that she is a professor at the Vulcan Science Academy but do they tell you what branch of science she's in? I assumed that archeology and anthropology were part of the Cultural Ministry. Am I wrong?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

We don't know if there's a Cultural Ministry, or exactly what branches/departments the Vulcan Science Academy has.

We never learn what branch T'Les is in either. I just assume that being at the Academy would allow her access to whatever info she could dig up from the archives. She might be a librarian or archivist. And since she's Vulcan she might have multiple degrees/fields of research.

[WarpGirl]

Well a Cultural Directorate would make sense, there's one for science, security, military, diplomacy, ect. Oh well I'm just thinking through my fingers.

[Asso]

I see the issue as somewhere in between the both of your viewpoints, Asso and Warp Girl.

This is how Koss comes across to me: "Sorry about your mom's luck, T'Pol. But hey--why don't you undo the humiliation of calling off our wedding by going through with it like you're supposed to, and since I'm SUCH a nice guy from SUCH an upstanding family and all, my folks will do you a favor and put in a good word so your Moms can go back to work and not be humiliated the way you humiliated me."

Okay, sure, maybe he was under a lot of pressure from his parents, but please, this seems awfully opportunistic to me, on their part even if not on Koss's. If they were such great people and wanted to help that badly, they would've helped T'Les regardless; it's clear that someone in that family wanted to settle a score and when just the right bribe material presented itself, they jumped on it.

So Koss, while maybe not a snake, is definitely a weenie in my book. T'Pol certainly had more balls than he did, making a stand against the wedding earlier on and saying "It's MY life!"

Do I call this unnecessary angst? No. We're well aware of Vulcan customs regarding marriage since we saw everything Spock went through on the subject. So it's pretty obvious that T'Pol's life is gonna become problematic over it because A) she gave Vulcan tradition the finger in order to go do her own thing, and B) in the wake of this, she's come to have the hots for someone outside her own species, which we also know is going to cause quite a bit of scorn on T'Pol. It's inherent in a situation like theirs, so I don't consider it manufactured or gratuitous.

This is very cogent, Aquarius.
Now, you gave me what I need for something which is whirling in my mind long since about a story with Koss.
Thank you!

[WarpGirl]

But Aquarius they might have had no way of helping without the marriage since they're all Syrranites and V'Las is a backstabbing Romulan lover. Even Soval is hamstrung, how many things did he have to hide just to hold his post and help Earth? I said it before but the corrupt govt. Is gunning for T'Pol it's entirely possible they want her dead. If you view Koss and family as OK which Kir'Shara proves by making them Syrranites, it's entirely possible that their motives are indeed altruistic in nature. Not every Vulcan it ruthless like T'Pau is. Why else would the let her go? Why wouldn't they have kept her on Vulcan for the traditional year? It makes no sense. I realize this is ENT. I'm just putting it out there.

[Aquarius]

But Aquarius they might have had no way of helping without the marriage since they're all Syrranites and V'Las is a backstabbing Romulan lover. Even Soval is hamstrung, how many things did he have to hide just to hold his post and help Earth? I said it before but the corrupt govt. Is gunning for T'Pol it's entirely possible they want her dead. If you view Koss and family as OK which Kir'Shara proves by making them Syrranites, it's entirely possible that their motives are indeed altruistic in nature. Not every Vulcan it ruthless like T'Pau is. Why else would the let her go? Why wouldn't they have kept her on Vulcan for the traditional year? It makes no sense. I realize this is ENT. I'm just putting it out there.

Well, I still think it's a stretch.

First of all, the focus of the confrontation between Koss and T'Pol was forcing the wedding. The "kind offer" of assisting her mother was put up quite obviously to turn up the heat on T'Pol to give him what he wanted.

Second, in that scene, let's not forget that when she asks him what if she declares the kal'ifee, he says "I will do what is necessary," as in he'll go to any length to make sure the wedding happens. (Emphasis mine). Not "we" or "my family" or "my parents." Which suggests that this all is actually going down because he still wants her. Sure, this could also be from pressure from the family, but that brings me to...

Third, Koss makes no mention of how this could protect T'Pol; he states that his family is of sufficient influence to help restore her mother's position. So even if they're Syrranites, they're obviously not under suspicion and still posses enough clout to help T'Les...so again the marriage wouldn't have been necessary to make it "look good." In fact...

Fourth, T'Les is being punished because of T'Pol's actions, so T'Pol's viewed as a maverick and even a pariah here. Marrying her would only visit shame and dishonor on Koss's family, which currently has a good name in Vulcan society. If they were worried about being discovered as Syrranites, an action like marrying T'Pol into the family would undoubtedly invite unwanted scrutiny to go with the scorn. To me, this plays out more like a "risk they're willing to take" in order for Koss to get what he wants, rather than a way to "protect" T'Les. If they were interested in protecting T'Les, then they could just as easily (and more sensibly) go to the folks in charge and say "We can vouch for T'Les, leave her alone, she's cool. That crazy daughter of hers, on the other hand, is a trouble maker and a tramp and can go to hell." This would actually arouse less suspicion than forcing a wedding and then asking for T'Les to get reinstated.

Fifth, when all was said and done and Koss gave her the annulment, why wouldn't he just tell her then that he wasn't doing it to screw with her, that it was for her protection as well as her mother's? Then T'Pol (and the rest of us) would see all of this as an altruistic move, rather than, "Well, your mom's dead, so I don't have that to hold over your head any more. I guess you're free to go." He knows that she'd just resent the hell out of him because her sacrifice ended up being for nothing. Furthermore, at this point, divorce is more of a punishment than forcing her to stay married. Think about it: she no longer has Trip, she no longer has her mother, and now she no longer has Koss. He's totally kicked her when she's down, and she is truly alone now.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get all listy; I'm still in a fog of migraine meds and it was the only way I could keep my thoughts organized enough to express them here.

[WarpGirl]

Awe get better. I'm not saying you're wrong I haven't even seen "Home" yet! I think it's on this Tuesday, maybe I'll change my mind. You never know it can happen. But usually I have a pathological urge to be different. Oh well not the first time I've been weird won't be the last.

[Aquarius]

Yeah, sometimes it helps to see the episodes, even if you already know the gist of what happens in them. That was the challenge I faced when first writing TnT, because here was this fandom I was all excited about, and I had something to say about what I *did* see...but there were things that at first I either didn't understand or agree with here and there, and sometimes reading episode transcripts or just asking people didn't help much. When you see the episodes you catch nuances like how things are said and body language that communicates more than just the words or the general idea of what's happening. That's why I went ahead and watched *the_abomination*, because I had to know for myself just how bad it was, and what, precisely, it was that I would be ignoring from then on.

[WarpGirl]

All I can say is at least I'm honest.

[Aquarius]

Oh, I'm not trying to harsh on you here! Sorry if that's how I was coming across with that. I was just meaning to say that actually seeing the episodes can give you a different way of thinking about it. If you're thinking in terms of a fic here, go on and make your artistic expression! I'm not trying to discourage you in any way...in fact, now you're just aware of some of the objections to overcome in order to sell readers in the "Koss is a snake" camp on the idea.

In the case of *the_abomination*, though, it was actually worse than I imagined...

[WarpGirl]

Oh no you're fine really! Pris used to call me "passive aggressive, and prone to making irrelevant whiny posts" over at Kotorfanmedia. I learned to ignore it. As for Koss I will let you know on Tuesday.