Was there ever a direct order?

[aadarshinah]

Well, there are cases like in "Azati Prime" when he didn't follow orders so much as try to convince her of the stupidity of them... which I think is less disobeying orders and more of, well, i dunno. Making sure she didn't kill herself maybe?

So, so long as one or the other isn't being effected by some outside influence (pollen, trellium, ect), Trip does appear to follow T'Pol's orders. More or less.

[WarpGirl]

Trying to talk someone out of an order is not disobeying it. It could be insubordination, but it isn't disobedience, or refusing to follow said order. So Trip always followed orders unless an outside factor made it impossible.

[Aquarius]

Well, there are cases like in "Azati Prime" when he didn't follow orders so much as try to convince her of the stupidity of them... which I think is less disobeying orders and more of, well, i dunno. Making sure she didn't kill herself maybe?

So, so long as one or the other isn't being effected by some outside influence (pollen, trellium, ect), Trip does appear to follow T'Pol's orders. More or less.

That's the interesting part. The arguments. Honestly I can't think of any instances of blatant disobedience myself, but he wasn't exactly "Ma'am, yes ma'am!" about it, either.

[WarpGirl]

I don't know any military that would not charge an officer (possibly put them in jail) for arguing with a superior. You would have conduct unbecoming charges, insubordination, DOD and at least two other charges... Transwarp would remember... Yet almost every character in every Trek has done it. I don't know one who hasn't. Even Reg Barclay! I mean if Reg Barclay can get away with it...

[panyasan]

Kotik, there must have ben a hell of a dramatic change in European Military. Cause when I was in Europe (for 17 years) no French Officer could have commanded a German unit.

As I have said before NATO tried a Ship Officeered and crewed by various Nations. Didn't work worth a damn. It was quietly shelved. There had been a second Nato ship in the Works (My wife worked on part of it) which was stopped in the planning stages because the concept failed. I am not sure just what circumstances were in effect when that French Officer was an exchange Officer. It may have een that the German Platoon was ordered by thier own officers to obey the French Officer. Interesting thoujgh. I had never heard of something like that.

I did know that NATO central command was for pllanning purposes and the military of each nation was autonomous. There were Liason and observer to be sure but that status did not include command capabilities over foreign troops.

Learn something new every day.

BTW, if you think the Amercicans are bad you should see the Brits.

The change came about in the early 90's. I served from '92 to '95. At that time the Dutch were using German training facilities on german soil under german supervision,

Which was a huge change. In the 90-ties the relationship between the Netherlands and Germany (how had been strained) had sort of returned to normal and the Dutch army needed space to train. It did raise some eyebrows. BTW, there have been talks about a joined European army considering the European Union, but that's seen as a brigde too far.

[Aquarius]

As honeybee so astutely pointed out, "reality" has no bearing when the writers have a show to move along.

[WarpGirl]

I'm still confused over the notion that Trip didn't really "always follow orders..." Totally I mean more than is normal for me, which is pretty bad. I do better with the concept known as algerbra.

[panyasan]

I know T'Pol outrankes Trip, because she is the XO and ahead of him in the chain of command, but they both are Commanders - same rank - and friends. So I don't find it very disturbing when Trip is discussing an order from T'Pol in private. In the show Trip and T'Pol seems mostly to agree on things - more then for example T'Pol-Archer or Archer- Trip. It's also not T'Pol commanding style to say "it's an order - no more discussion" - she is (more) open for suggestions. Archer is more the "I am the captain - it's an order"-type.

[WarpGirl]

AMEN! Thank you Panyasan for reassuring me I am not crazy (well at least not delusional). But I have to amit that moment in Civilization annoys me because he didn't do it privately, he did it on the bridge in front of everyone. Not cool.

[Aquarius]

WG, it was just something to get people thinking and talking. There is nothing to "get".

[aadarshinah]

agreed. they have a very willing-to-discuss-anything relationship, so long as that discussion isn't about their relationship itself. Maybe I'm just sleep addled, but, after "Civilization, I can't remember any of their arguements taking place in front of the crew. At least not the serious, order-defying type. And, as has been pointed out many, many times, T'Pol's right to XO is dubious. A large part of me thinks T'Pol recongized this and, quite possibly because it was the only way to get her orders followed at first, listened Trip's opinion as highest starfleet ranking officer (after Archer) out of necessity and then, well, because there was actually merit to them...

[panyasan]

And, as has been pointed out many, many times, T'Pol's right to XO is dubious. A large part of me thinks T'Pol recongized this and, quite possibly because it was the only way to get her orders followed at first, listened Trip's opinion as highest starfleet ranking officer (after Archer) out of necessity and then, well, because there was actually merit to them...

I think that maybe be part of it. Also (according to my memory) T'Pol never has questioned Trips quality as officer/commander and engineer. She thinks highly of him professionally (I don't think Trip does realize that enought). Plus Trip understands the human crew - and the captain - better then she does. Plus they did feel more comfortable with each other (before the relationship become more then just a professional relationship), so it's naturally for T'Pol to turn to Trip. (Interesting point: would their abbiltiy to discuss proffesional matters not help them to learn to discuss their personal relationship better? Sort of as basic to start from?)

[WarpGirl]

WG, it was just something to get people thinking and talking. There is nothing to "get".

But you made it sound like there were instances where he did not follow orders, which as far as I know did not happen, like EVER. Unless he's under "scifi" influence. Which is confusing...

(Interesting point: would their abbiltiy to discuss proffesional matters not help them to learn to discuss their personal relationship better? Sort of as basic to start from?)

If only...

[Rigil Kent]

See, I always kind of envisioned them as splitting the duties of XO since while technically T'Pol outranks Trip by position, it's hard to buy that she otherwise outranks him (equivalent grades, no data on how long either of them have served in their respective grades, etc.) For some reason (and there's nothing canonical to back this up - just my opinion), I saw T'Pol as doing the paperwork of the XO job while Trip handled the personnel interaction stuff. A problem comes up, T'Pol figures out the problem and how it needs to be fixed, and Trip talks to the person who needs to be talked to.

But yeah, not backed up by anything other than wishful thinking since pretty much all of Trek is patently illogical when it comes to rank structure (from ENT to VOY, to nuTrek and so on.)

Does T'Pol's "you should cut it out" in regards to the Cogenitor count? I mean, she didn't come out and state it, but it was pretty clear that she was telling him to back off (which he ignored.)

[honeybee]

Mod's Note: Moved the off-topic discussion on Malcolm's education to the Malcolm and Hoshi thread. Discussion may continue there! Didn't move the government structure stuff here because it is at least tangentially related to the rank issue.