Was there ever a direct order?

[Thot]

That's a question which crossed my mind after reading Kotik's first chapter of "Enterprise Revisited": Has T'Pol ever given a direct order to Trip during the whole series?

And I mean something different from "Dismissed" or "Concentrate the repairs here".

For example in 'Cogenitor' she gave Trip only the advise to stop his musing about the cogenitor; not an order.

[WarpGirl]

I don't think she ever used the words "That's an order." But in Broken Bow and Civilization she got the point across. Personally I don't think she really had too. Trip may have questioned her orders at times in season 1 but he never disobeyed, and once he trusted her (which didn't take too long) he followed the chain of command.

[aadarshinah]

idk... in "Civilization" Trip pretty much does countermands a direct order... which I suppose would be mutany, not disobeying because it wasn't directed at him specifically... but I'm not sure. I've included the transcript below.

REED: They're recharging weapons.
T'POL: Prepare to leave orbit on my order.
TUCKER: Belay that! Keep this ship right where it is.
T'POL: I don't have to reiterate that I outrank you, Mister Tucker. Ensign.
CREWMAN [OC]: Engineering.
TUCKER: Billy, stand by to vent the nacelles on my order.
CREWMAN [OC]: Yes, sir.
TUCKER: We're not going anywhere.
T'POL: I didn't say leave orbit, I said prepare to leave orbit. I have no intention of abandoning the Captain, dead or alive.

I always thought that kind of odd, especially since it's the episode directly after "Breaking the Ice," but I can't really recall her giving him a direct order... or him disobeying one when it's given.

[Kotik]

I always thought that kind of odd, especially since it's the episode directly after "Breaking the Ice," but I can't really recall her giving him a direct order... or him disobeying one when it's given.

She did give him orders on several occasions, like when she ordered him to have the deflector modified within 2 hour in preparation to demolish sphere 41. ("The Forgotten")

[WarpGirl]

I'm crazy but isn't every time she gave him an assignment an order? Why does she have to say "that's an order?" If she tells him to get the warp core online in 2 hours its already an order.

[Silverbullet]

We are going to get in to the fact that she doesn't outrank him because her rank is Vulcan and she is on a Human Starship. she is not Starfleet. she is an Officer in the VHC, She cannot legaly give any order on Enterprise. In season three she is a civilian. Again she cannot legally give any orders. However, be that as it may TPTB chose to ignore that. So we have a situation where Trip seems to know that he is the ranking Starfleet Officer on board but defers to T'Pol anyway.

BTW, I believe the dialogue cited was in Broken Bow it did not take place after "Breaking the Ice." At that time T'Pol was a Liason and observer on board. Not in the chain of command or even part of the crew. She had no authority to give commands.

[WarpGirl]

The people who created and wrote the show decided she did SB. It's fiction, not real, a flight of fancy, it will never be real. Jeeze its not a big deal. Its a story! Did Jack really climb a giant bean stalk?

PS you're wrong the episode is Civilization which comes after Breaking The Ice it wasn't one of Trip's best moments.

[aadarshinah]

Regardless of the sense of it though, we are expected to accept in ENT that T'Pol did outrank Trip while she was still a member of the High Command and continued to outrank him after she resigned her commission and still outranked him when she joined Starfleet, regarless of time-in-grade etc.

But I think Thot's question was along the line of, were T'Pol's orders to Trip ever directly orders, or were they the sort of orders that are in keeping with what he'd generally have been expected to do and therefore more strident suggestions than orders.... and does that even make sense as a sentance?

addendum: I personally liked that moment in "Civilization" too, but it just seemd odd, continuity wise. Something that more likely would have happened before, not after, "Breaking the Ice."

[WarpGirl]

But I think Thot's question was along the line of, were T'Pol's orders to Trip ever directly orders, or were they the sort of orders that are in keeping with what he'd generally have been expected to do and therefore more strident suggestions than orders.... and does that even make sense as a sentance?

Not really, but then I am terribly sick right now. My brain's fried. I like your sentences though.

[aadarshinah]

You wound me deeply, WG. I think I shall cry now.....

Anyway, I guess the thought was: Did T'Pol ever order Trip to do something that he'd not have ended up doing in the first place? Besides telling him to go away when he really wanted to stay and figure out wtf was going on with her at various points in season 3.

[Kotik]

We are going to get in to the fact that she doesn't outrank him because her rank is Vulcan and she is on a Human Starship. she is not Starfleet. she is an Officer in the VHC, She cannot legaly give any order on Enterprise. In season three she is a civilian. Again she cannot legally give any orders. However, be that as it may TPTB chose to ignore that. So we have a situation where Trip seems to know that he is the ranking Starfleet Officer on board but defers to T'Pol anyway.

BTW, I believe the dialogue cited was in Broken Bow it did not take place after "Breaking the Ice." At that time T'Pol was a Liason and observer on board. Not in the chain of command or even part of the crew. She had no authority to give commands.

SB. You're looking at it from today's military perspective. It's pure speculation to think that in 2151, things will still be the same. Besides that, you're overlooking two details:

1st: When she reports for duty in "Broken Bow", she tells Archer, that she was 'transferred to your command at 0800', which means she must have gotten something akin to a field commission, else Archer would have no command authority over her. So, if Archer can order her, she must also be eligable for the chain of command.

2nd: Towards ther end of season 3, during that captain's dinner were she allowed Trip to buy her a drink, she says that she is 'thinking of formalizing' her service with Starfleet, which imho hints to me at Archer having her given a field commission after she resigned from the VHC, somewhere during those 2 months, it took them to reach the expanse.

[Alelou]

What Thot already said about ordering him to set up the whatever to destroy sphere 41 is the best example I can think of. However, I also suspect a Trip who was in COMMAND at that point might have made the same decision she did; since he had the luxury of being ChE instead, he could argue the point.

[WarpGirl]

aadarshinah I didn't mean to hurt you.... I was only teasing... Um like I said if she told him to do something, (not personal) it was an order, period. Otherwise every work related sentence uttered by a superior would be followed by "that's an order" and they only do that to underscore a dramatic situation. Or when someone gets too reluctant.

Kotik That post is why I know you're brilliant.

[pdsldl]

From what I've observed when the first officer (legit by rules or not doesn't matter she was given the authority by Archer and Starfleet) tells a subordinate to do something or request they do something while on duty makes it an order. She was his superior officer so her words would be orders even if she didn't say it was. Only time one usually emphasizes it's an order is when the person(s) are resistant or refusing to follow the chain of command. I took her words in Cogenitor as an order as she was acting captain in Archer absence. She wouldn't have to tell Trip it was an order he should have understood it as such and must have if you go by his sneaking around. If there was nothing at risk he would have been open about his activities so I assumed he knew he was acting against what T'Pol said and faced consequences if he were caught.

And I can see Trip's behavior after 'Breaking the Ice' because Archer was his friend and his captain so he might get a bit emotional, especially since while he may trust T'Pol more he might still be a little wary of her unemotional Vulcan nature and question her motives when she ordered them to prepare to leave orbit. It might still take a while for him to see that she has emotions and what kind of an attachment/ loyalty she has to the crew and captain and that she is not all detached and going to abandon Archer. It's the natural way of developing personal and professional friendships. We don't go from 0 to 60 or just flip a switch and we're all trusting and BFF's.

[aadarshinah]

aadarshinah I didn't mean to hurt you.... I was only teasing...

Sorry, my particular brand of talking doesn't seem to come out well in type... Let's just say that, not five minutes after I submited that message, my mom came home with a plaque inducting me into the National Sarcasim Society. My own mother...

But, anyway, it's not the why or what of what Trip does in "Civilization" that strikes me as odd, it's the how. Instead of directly belaying that order, which is in charector with his personality, especially before "Breaking the Ice," I'd have prefered him to try to talk her out of leaving the planet. stringently.