Kind of wife TPol would be?

[WarpGirl]

Well, considering you called me out earlier for objecting to the idea that they would conform to traditional mid-twentieth century gender roles, I don't know what you've got in your ears either. And the notion that society never proscribed such roles is absurd.

I guess I meant that gender rolls have never been completely defined by Only men or Only women in any society. Both sexes have shaped the way gender rolls are defined through generations. You made a comment about TOS...

Sometimes, TOS is bewildering in its sexism - even though GR created "Number One" in the pilot as the almost gender, neutral intellectual, logical female. He wanted the uniforms to be gender neutral as in TNG as well. And although TPTB claim "focus groups of women" were the ones who hated Number One and caused her ouster - I have a few friends who study media from back then, and they say the focus groups of that era were usually put together to reinforce with the male executives thought was true. But, I always try and look at TOS as a product of its own era. ENT was also a product of its era, and it reflects the amazing strides made.

While your friends might be right about focus groups catering to men "in charge" it does not negate the fact that in the early part of the 60's a good sized group of women would have objected to "Number 1." The only reason TOS is considered sexist now is that BOTH women and men's values shifted over a period of time. I personally don't find it degrading to women because it gave women a lot of empowerment for the times.

[Alelou]

You don't find the dated attitudes towards women in TOS weird and degrading now? I can understand thinking it wasn't so bad for its day -- even kind of groundbreaking -- but I mostly find it laughable in that area now.

It was kind of bizarre watching the new movie try to navigate between then and now, apparently by deciding that 1) bare thighs and 2) a heavy preponderance of males in authority would be enough of an homage to the original.

Although I'm not sure they even thought about the latter. Not THAT much has changed.

[honeybee]

While your friends might be right about focus groups catering to men "in charge" it does not negate the fact that in the early part of the 60's a good sized group of women would have objected to "Number 1." The only reason TOS is considered sexist now is that BOTH women and men's values shifted over a period of time. I personally don't find it degrading to women because it gave women a lot of empowerment for the times.

Excuse me? Weren't you arguing that "traditional gender roles don't exist" before? Now you're saying they are all over TOS? I'm so confused. What is it? Creative people should have cowered in fear of offending rigid gender rules - or those rules are silly and don't exist?

I cut TOS slack because it is a product of its time, but if Gene Rodenberry cared what idiots would think - he wouldn't have had a black woman on the bridge, wouldn't have added a Russian to the cast or wouldn't have had all those allegory episodes. He certainly wouldn't have had the first interracial kiss on American television.

TOS did a lot of things great things by catering to those who were willing to look at a better future and embrace idealism, and I for one, wish GR had stuck to his guns with Number One. But there was also the issue of network suits being pissed at him wanting to make his girlfriend the second lead.

edited to add: I was weirdly glad they kept the miniskirts in the reboot, 1960s relic though they are. Probably because I wore a blue minidress to the one and only Star Trek wedding I attended, even though most guests were attired in those god-awful TNG era jumpsuits. I preferred showing off my legs! TOS has some great points, and it has its Austin-powers attitudes that are out-of-date. But the great thing is that Trek evolved with the times.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

...and Trip countering with a comment that T'Pol would look great in a tropical print bikini.

Mmmmm... T'Pol in a bikini!

Sorry, got distracted there. Anyway, I'm in the camp that says T'Pol wouldn't be a controlling mother-hen to Trip. I think the Bond would work wonders for both of them in terms of recognizing when each of them might have gone too far, without actually spelling it out. They'd still argue of course, but, like has been said, more for the fun and challenge of it.

As for Trip keeping fit. He would have no problems as he would get plenty of exercise doing hot wild Vulcan monkey lovin' on a regular basis.

[Brandyjane]

That "Let's go" look in Hatchery. What was that all about? Was she saying "play time"? Trip obviously knew what she meant and wanted because he followed her out of the door without question. It was one scene that always puzzled me. I ofen thought htat there should have been one more scene explaining the results of that look. Maybe one was planned but got the axe.

Well, we need Alelou to write that missing scene for us, don't we?

[Silverbullet]

You think that Alelou knows what that look meant?

[Brandyjane]

You think that Alelou knows what that look meant?

Why not?

[Alelou]

Alelou definitely IS looking forward to that episode.

[Brandyjane]

That's good news!

[aadarshinah]

Alelou definitely IS looking forward to that episode.

Worry when you start speaking of yourself in the third person...

but this thread has me wondering what kind of mother T'Pol would be, assuming it was possible... I, amazingly, don't have any thoughts on it other than the odd thought, based off her "conversation" with Elizabeth in "Terra Prime," that she probably never babysat....

[honeybee]

Well, she was seen being Vulcan-nice to the kids in the episode on Travis's family's ship. And Vulcans are very attached to their kids.

I'm guessing she's be very affectionate toward her children, but in her Vulcan way. When I wrote my only story that shows TnT as parents (The Little Miracle), I had them as a united disciplinary front when it came to their rebellious daughter. It would be natural to see Trip as the permissive one and her as the disciplinarian, but I don't think they'd let it shake down that way. I think they'd be too smart for that, and they'd work together as a team.

[Aquarius]

I think the whole concept of "traditional gender rolls" is really bogus. Right or wrong, men and women have collectively decided over generations how to define their rolls in society. Over generations they've changed and adapted. .

Are you kidding me right now?

You weren't here during the 70s. In the 80s you were probably too young to be aware of much outside your own world view. But I have to tell you, with all due respect, that the women who had to fight tooth and nail to break through the glass ceiling would have a thing or two to say to you. You might feel differently if you had to burn YOUR bra in order to get The Man's attention because you wanted comparative wages and career opportunities to men, if you'd been told it's YOUR job to stay home and watch the kids and have dinner on the table because you don't have a penis, or be told that you shouldn't aspire to being anything other than a nurse, a secretary, or a stewardess for the same reason...forget being a doctor or a lawyer or a construction worker or anything else that wasn't traditionally female.

I think the feminists of the 60s and 70s and 80s would strongly disagree that the gender roles you've labeled as "bogus" changed and adapted all by themselves. You would do well to remember that you don't have to fight for these things now because THEY did back then.

[Silverbullet]

Would T'Pol role as a wife blend with her role as a mother? Caregiver? If that is what she would be?

I grew up with that. "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle"

In one way there is confusion today because Roles are no longer defined so rigidly.

Roles came about by necessity. Men hunted and drug home the Meat women bore the children and tended to them. It was that way for many cnetureies. today that is no longer true. I am not sure if role reersal is that comfortable for some.

women say that they should be allowed in combat. Lot of males would go along with that. "Let them get thier Ass shot off for a change." However, our deepest instinct of survival of species steps in. A man can impregnate a hundred females but on average a woman has one child in nine moths so females are far too important to maintaining the species. Men instinttvely know this as do women,or should.

women of today say "Milk the men of thier Sperm and we don't need them." You gotta catch the men first.

My mother and Fathr were very comfortable with what they had and thier roles. They both worked hard and raised three kids. But they cared for one antoher and that seemed to be enough.

SB

[honeybee]

I'd like you to step out and say that to the many fine women veterans of combat in the Israeli army, the Russian army, the Chinese army and . . .the US Army. The lines have been blurred in the current conflict, and all my American female veteran friends have experienced combat in one form or another. I certainly wouldn't bet against any of them.

Nor would I bet against the many warrior women of history, including the Amazons, Celtic warrior women like Boudicca as well as Viking women - who were responsible for defending the homefront against rival tribes when their men were off raping and pillaging.

What these women do know is that they can fight, they can die and they do serve. They should be respected.

[Aquarius]

No one is saying that a woman shouldn't be happy taking care of her children or her spouse or in a job as a nurse or as a secretary or whatever. -BUT- for way too long, WE WEREN'T GIVEN A CHOICE. And THAT'S where "traditional gender roles" come into play. No one is saying a woman shouldn't choose anything traditionally female; we *are* saying that she should have a choice, and that along with equal rights comes equal responsibilities being shared between the sexes. This means women serving in combat and men cleaning up the diaper bombs or getting dinner ready.

The fact of the matter is, we had to fight for the right to vote. We had to fight for the right to hold the same jobs as men. And we had to fight to be paid the same as men.

And bringing this back to the point of the thread, Trip and T'Pol and Enterprise are the products of a generational cohort that benefited from those battles. Just because T'Pol does something "feminine" or Trip does something "masculine" it doesn't mean that they're completely traditional.