Kind of wife TPol would be?

[honeybee]

You know it, JT. I remember it totally shocking me that Aaron Burr was a hard-core women's rights advocate, even keeping a picture of Mary Wollstonecraft on his mantel, as well as giving his only child, a daughter, the best education money could buy. One of the key pieces of evidence against Burr that linked him to his lunatic, Napoleon-aping plan to become Emperor of Mexico was a letter saying that he planned to leave his Empire to his daughter! When I learned that, I had to wrap my brain around the idea a treasonous, Hamilton-killing, imperialist was also right-on target where women's rights were concerned. LOL

And the issue at hand is what kind of wife would T'Pol be, and the larger question is - what kind of marriage would they have. E2 gives us some hints, but I think the majority of fics on this site show them in a loving, equal relationship where they cared for one another - but had to blaze their own trail as far as roles and dynamics given the inter-species thing.

[Aquarius]

Pro-female does not automatically mean "anti-male." That is one problem I have with many facets of feminism. While I thank the bra-burners for the rights and opportunities I have today, I don't feel that I should be looked down upon because I like my pretty, expensive bras that come from Victoria's Secret. I have a *choice* what kind of feminist I want to be.

I don't know. Maybe things like equality in the workplace and comparable wages are only meaningful if you *have* to work for a living, and you actually care about being happy while doing it. Younger women today have no clue what it was like back then. WWII gave modern feminism its big push: the boys were off to war, so the women were filling in on the jobs they normally did--and doing a damn good job. (Rosie the Riveter or "A League of their Own," anyone?)

Then the boys came back. And the women were pushed out of their jobs. Some happily went back to the way things were...but others were dissatisfied with being told that they can't and shouldn't when they've damn well proven they CAN.

And from that, 1950s feminism was born. Books like Feminine Mystique were resonating with women all over the country. And the Baby Boomers were growing up, becoming the activists of the 1960s and well into the 70s, fighting for our rights to be considered and paid fairly for those same jobs again. I missed most of that, but having come along in the dawning of the 70s, I remember a time when things were getting better but still waaaay disproportionate. I remember in fourth grade picking out my Star Trek: The Motion Picture lunch box while back-to-school shopping, and being asked, "Are you sure? Isn't that for boys?" So telling me that imposed gender roles are bogus is a load of crap--with all due respect.

We Gen Xers are the "caught in the middle" generation. We had people imposing these roles and expectations on us...we also were the first generation to start being told things like it's okay for girls to play with trucks and boys to play with dolls. Social change in regards to gender was blatantly necessary...but my generation also faced quite a bit of conflict because of it. Furthermore, as predicted, my generation is also the first since the Great Depression to have *less* than their parents did, so because of economic reasons, more women had to leave the home and work so their households could survive, even if their husbands worked...so equal opportunities and equal pay became even more important, because it wasn't just a matter of choice, it was a matter of survival.

And, as happens with any and every generation, those who come after often take what they have and can do for granted, because of what those who came before them did.

And I am again forced to ask myself and everyone here what this has to do with the topic: It's because when you impose a "Mad Men" mentality on characters that were not created in that era or created for a show about that era, they won't ring true. Likewise, if I tried to write a Leave it to Beaver episode from the Quinten Tarintino school of thought...well let's just say that while the results may be extremely entertaining (I mean, hell, *I'd* watch that! ), it won't exactly be consistent with the show everyone remembers.

[honeybee]

I went to a women's college, and just what "feminist" meant was a huge subject of debate. The students and professors came in all political stripes, from all cultures, all classes, all religions and pretty much every perspective. The general vibe at the school was - you can think, believe, advocate anything you want, but make sure you respect the men and women who fought long and hard to give you the right to be here, be educated and speak your mind. You don't have to agree with everything they thought - most people wouldn't - but appreciate that the school's very existence came about after a fight. And the professors and staff at the school? Broke down equally between men and women.

But this rolls around back to the original argument. TnT would need to respect each other, and if they were married, they most certainly would. Would they help each other out? Yes. Would they care for one another? Absolutely. But it would be done with respect, not only for the other individual but their culture and the history of their respective planets.

[aadarshinah]

But this rolls around back to the original argument. TnT would need to respect each other, and if they were married, they most certainly would. Would they help each other out? Yes. Would they care for one another? Absolutely. But it would be done with respect, not only for the other individual but their culture and the history of their respective planets.

Which begs the question of gender roles on Vulcan. Other than the property-esque (and pre-awakening holdover) kal-if-fee, Vulcan men and women seemed pretty equal to me.

[panyasan]

Which begs the question of gender roles on Vulcan. Other than the property-esque (and pre-awakening holdover) kal-if-fee, Vulcan men and women seemed pretty equal to me.

It looks equal, but given the fact that a guy like Koss could force T'Pol to marry him, I don't know, I always get the feeling the underneath the surface the men have more influence then women. Politics are pretty dominated by men. Of course we have T'Pau, who btw always reminds me of Margaret Thatcher, prime minster of Great Britain in the 80-ties.

[Brandyjane]

But this rolls around back to the original argument. TnT would need to respect each other, and if they were married, they most certainly would. Would they help each other out? Yes. Would they care for one another? Absolutely. But it would be done with respect, not only for the other individual but their culture and the history of their respective planets.

Which begs the question of gender roles on Vulcan. Other than the property-esque (and pre-awakening holdover) kal-if-fee, Vulcan men and women seemed pretty equal to me.

True, they do seem equal, which is what makes the whole kal-if-fee thing so weird. Could Vulcans be equal in all areas of life except marriage? Is that even possible? I can't imagine T'Pol, T'Les, T'Pau, or V'Lar considering themselves or being considered by anyone else to be anything less than equal to their mates. And even if Vulcans did have a different perspective on spousal equality, I can't imagine Trip agreeing to treat T'Pol as anything less than his equal, respect for culture or not. It wouldn't be logical!

[honeybee]

Ah! The iron lady - Margaret Thatcher. Some people claim JK Rowling based Voldemort on her.

My guess is that pre-Surak Vulcan was patriarchal, with women having certain "enforcer" power roles - as they do in highly patriarchal societies today. But since Surak, gender equality has come about in most areas except the cultural blind spot they have around marriage/pon farr. We've seen Vulcan women in all sorts of professional capacities.

True, they do seem equal, which is what makes the whole kal-if-fee thing so weird. Could Vulcans be equal in all areas of life except marriage? Is that even possible? I can't imagine T'Pol, T'Les, T'Pau, or V'Lar considering themselves or being considered by anyone else to be anything less than equal to their mates. And even if Vulcans did have a different perspective on spousal equality, I can't imagine Trip agreeing to treat T'Pol as anything less than his equal, respect for culture or not. It wouldn't be logical!

We took a spin around this issue in the "marriage thread" a couple of weeks back. I think the general consensus was that the pon farr induced cultural blind spot regarding marriage/mating made Vulcans interesting, not necessarily right. Their society is not ideal, and just like humans they have their flaws. But you are right - Trip would treat her as an equal. And she would appreciate that.

[Lady Rainbow]

Just a thought...

Maybe in pre-Surak times, when Vulcan was still embroiled in war, that women were the "power behind the throne", so to speak? The society may have been patriarchal, but women still had considerable influence? I can see it in many Earth cultures (like ancient China) where wives and concubines jockeyed for position and was still able to influence politics and culture, just in different ways. Not to say that kind of society is "better" or "worse" than other eras, but given Human nature, women (and men) will find a way around cultural barriers.

I think TnT would treat each other equally, according to their strengths and weaknesses. Would T'Pol be concerned about Trip's health and welfare? Of course she would and Trip would be the same about T'Pol's health. Not just because they're husband and wife, but because they're friends and also care about each other. I don't see it as being degrading or condescending. As for picking out clothes, T'Pol might "strongly suggest" outfits to wear to Vulcan functions just because she knows more about that sort of thing than Trip does. Again, condescending? Not necessarily. Now, if she tried to control everything he wore, ate, etc. that would be different. I doubt Trip would tolerate that for very long. He certainly wouldn't pull that on T'Pol.

And about those loud, tropical print shirts? T'Pol might wince, but would she throw 'em out? Or burn 'em?

And the metaphorical (literal?) "sleeping in the doghouse"? I can see them arguing, maybe not seeing eye to eye, and maybe needed some space from each other now and then. That's marriage for you. But T'Pol kicking Trip to the couch? I can actually see Trip closeting himself in his office, working on designs, to avoid being around T'Pol when she's mad.

And the kal-i-fee thing...just because it's tradition doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing. It seems to make women mere chattel in the marriage. How often DOES the challenge gets brought up? It seems to happen often enough. Or is it because Spock's situation was uniquely screwed up? Do most vulcan weddings go off without a hitch?

[Alelou]

Just a relate side note: Newbies who haven't checked out BlacknBlue's older fics yet might find his stories particularly interesting for their exploration of Vulcan customs and society (not to say they aren't humdinger TnT action stories, too). I don't always agree with his take on things, but they are very involving stories that paint a really fully-realized culture on Vulcan. You can find them in the archive, starting with "For Want of a Nail." It takes you to old Trip T'Polers at first because that's how far back they go.

[panyasan]

Just a thought...

Maybe in pre-Surak times, when Vulcan was still embroiled in war, that women were the "power behind the throne", so to speak? The society may have been patriarchal, but women still had considerable influence? I can see it in many Earth cultures (like ancient China) where wives and concubines jockeyed for position and was still able to influence politics and culture, just in different ways. Not to say that kind of society is "better" or "worse" than other eras, but given Human nature, women (and men) will find a way around cultural barriers.

The work behind the scenes: I can fully see this happening in Vulcan culture.

[honeybee]

I'm firmly in the women in patriarchal power structures found ways to influence things, but it's not better, not equal and not admirable. Just because it's women stoning adulteresses to death or mutilating their daughter's genitals, doesn't make it somehow right or okay or not a gender issue. Ask the young couple who got stoned to death this week in Afghanistan. I'm firmly in the - you've got a right to vote, you've got a right to participate in government, you've got a right to speak your mind being better than hiding, working the system and throwing stones at those who don't conform properly. The cream always rises to the top, and brilliant people usually find a way to function whatever society they are born into - it's the not so wily or idealistic or even stupid who suffer. This is why I have sympathy for T'Pring, who was pretty cold, she played the card's she had to get what she wanted, but she had to be hard enough not to care what happened to Kirk or Spock in the process.

But, the idea of Pre-logic, pre-Surak Vulcans behaving it a really primal, instinctive way - and pon farr being a vestige of that - now that makes great drama.

[Lady Rainbow]

I'm firmly in the women in patriarchal power structures found ways to influence things, but it's not better, not equal and not admirable. Just because it's women stoning adulteresses to death or mutilating their daughter's genitals, doesn't make it somehow right or okay or not a gender issue. Ask the young couple who got stoned to death this week in Afghanistan. I'm firmly in the - you've got a right to vote, you've got a right to participate in government, you've got a right to speak your mind being better than hiding, working the system and throwing stones at those who don't conform properly. The cream always rises to the top, and brilliant people usually find a way to function whatever society they are born into - it's the not so wily or idealistic or even stupid who suffer. This is why I have sympathy for T'Pring, who was pretty cold, she played the card's she had to get what she wanted, but she had to be hard enough not to care what happened to Kirk or Spock in the process.

But, the idea of Pre-logic, pre-Surak Vulcans behaving it a really primal, instinctive way - and pon farr being a vestige of that - now that makes great drama.

Some things are just wrong, no matter which gender is the one who does it. Didn't mean to imply that it's "acceptable" at all. It's not "better" or "equal" or "right". I'm just saying that there were eras in our own Earth history where women still found work-arounds. And I don't advocate women (or men) throwing stones at those who don't conform. Please don't misinterpret my words as giving a stamp of approval to events like what happened in Afghanistan. FTR, I DO NOT approve of those kind of actions.

*sigh* shutting up now.

[honeybee]

I didn't think you did mean it that way, but I have a particular pet peeve with people telling me I'm supposed to respect the "culture" rather than the people that are suffering. Usually, you can do both and only in really extreme cases do you have to choose between the two. So, we agree 100%. I think it's partially my brain tends to think in extremes, my bad.

[aadarshinah]

Ah! The iron lady - Margaret Thatcher. Some people claim JK Rowling based Voldemort on her.

Salman Rushide is said to have based the Imam in The Satanic Verses off her...

It's all so annoying. We can say that T'Pol and Trip would probably act according to their cutural backgrounds in any marriage they might enter into, but, though we have a decent idea of what Trip's background would be, we have to guess on T'Pol's... and look where that gets us. So, ignoring Kal-if-fee for the moment, it is true that we don't see many female Vulcans in any Star Trek. In ENT theres, oh, none in the 1st season besides that 1 ambassador that I can think of, that one old lady in the room with Soval and the SF brass during Archer's gazelle speech in "Sockwave, pt 2" and maybe a few (though I can't be certain) in that recording Soval shows in "The Expanse" to keep them from going into, well, the Expanse; one or two trellium-addicts in "Impulse", and then T'Les, T'Pau, and the others on Vulcan in season 4.... And, with the exception of that one ambassador, until season 4, none of them had speaking parts.

T'Pau is powerful, or became so. T'Pol is obviously very good at her job, or else she'd not have been on Enterprise.... So I'm thinking that, while outwardly the Vulcans are equal, there is some sort of glass ceiling there. They're big on traditions. Perhaps, though it's not enforced in any means, most Vulcan women feel it's their place to stay at home and be all 50s housewife. No pressure on them or anything, just... tradition says they should feel that way and, until the later, post Kir'shara years, most of them do... ?

[honeybee]

We really don't have a lot of information, but it seems that most Vulcan women have vocations. In TNG and DS9, we had glimpses of professional Vulcan women. Crusher's assistant was a Vulcan, although we only saw her a handful of times. And there was the Maquis-sympathizing Vulcan freighter Captain in DS9, who proved that it adhering to logic did not necessarily mean staying within the law, but of course we saw male Vulcans doing that in ENT. In the TOS films we had Saavick and later Valeris.

I'm thinking that Vulcan women did have professions, and at least in Breaking the Ice, T'Pol says that she has to join Koss not because she's a woman but because there's no place for him on Enterprise, being an architect.

edited to add: The fact that women do have vocations, are free to pursue careers and are respected, makes the whole pon farr blindspot even more curious. But of course, we're a society that doesn't always live up to the standards its sets for itself either. People don't do that either. It's part of what makes life interesting.