Enterprise Revisited (Discussion)

[Brandyjane]

The first real argument was the infamous decon scene. It may have been added for shameless titilation, but it offers two important things:

• It's their first real argument and by Trip's later admission it is the point at which he realized that there is some kind of chemistry between them
• Same goes IMHO for T'Pol. There is no logical reason for her to let Trip fondle her ears. Not only does she end the contact quite belatedly, she also 'returns the gesture', when she caresses Trip's ears.

I think from that point on the direction is clear and it isn't surprising that it is Trip, who convinces her that she should continue the mission, while Archer is in sickbay

Many say that "Breaking the ice" is where their long way towards each other begins, but I think this episode was more meant to hammer the point home for those who hadn't yet gotten the clue that their interaction was different.

I couldn't agree more! Their interactions are very different!

For example, she let Trip fondle her ears and run his finger inside the waistband of her shorts (totally unnecessary!), but in "The Andorian Incident," she is extremely reluctant to even share the corner of a blanket with a fully-clothed Archer. And was it my imagination, or did she spend way more time than was necessary rubbing that decon gel on Trip's back? Maybe she was just being thorough, but I swear she went over the same areas several times. In contrast, she seemed much more detached in "A Night in Sickbay" when she applied it to Archer. It was far more clinical.

Here's another example: At the end of "Sleeping Dogs," when Hoshi, T'Pol, and Reed are in decon, Hoshi and Reed are smushed right up against each other, while T'Pol has several inches of space between herself and Hoshi. We had just gotten an episode where T'Pol and Hoshi make a connection. It would have been perfectly natural to see all three of them literally rubbing shoulders, yet T'Pol is still physically separate from the others. I think Trip would have been all up in her personal space if he'd been on that bench.

[Thot]

Well another good point would be if you adress this completely idiotic handling of the chain of command in the first episode: Humanities first deep space ship is on its first mission but there's no chain of command...

What about the plot the following way: Trip stays adament about being in charge since they are from two completely different chain of commands (plus there are no joint operations between Starfleet and High Command) and therefore there's no superseding anybody. And T'Pol's statement that she would contact Ambassador Soval and he would convince the Starfleet brass to give the command to her...

That would be plain embarrassing...

Starfleet should really believe that they have send the first warp 5 ship without another office besides the captain who can stand his ground at least for some time...

I can understand that later on the VHC demands T'Pol to be First Officier because of her experience and because Vulcans are superior and they need their guidance (naturally expressed in logical words... ) and some of the brass who hadn't be that happy with Trip being First Officier in the first place jump on the band wagon and Trip isn't that resentful against the change since can spend more with the engines and wants to give T'Pol a chance after her decision to help them...
But the whole process to this point shown in the show lacks any sense.

Well, at the same time I can easily picture Trip getting cranky about the whole issue that "they" (the Vulcans, perhaps T'Pol herself, his grudger in Starfleet) believe he isn't worthy of being in command and so wants to prove them wrong.
In addition after giving T'Pol the speech about how important it is for Archer to see this mission through, to surrender so easily... No man! That doesn't make any sense - at least from what we have seen on the show.

Therefore: PLEASE address this, Kotik.

[Kotik]

I'm currently analyzing "Broken Bow" scene by scene. Watching the away mission to Rigel X, I noticed that the entire senior bridge crew goes down: Archer, Trip, T'Pol, Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis.

Does anyone have an idea, who would take the bridge in that situation? There's at least two Lieutenants in engineering. Who would take command, when the entire senior staff is absent?

[Distracted]

I've always assumed there are other officers on ST ships that we don't see. Everyone always seems to be off-shift together for movie nights and such, so there must be the equivalent of a "second string" bridge crew to sub for the main crew, don't you think? How does it work on real ships? I'm sure things don't shut down at night. And since there's no real "night" in space, interesting things are just as likely to happen when the "regular" crew is asleep, aren't they?

[aadarshinah]

Random thoughts that came to me while betaing part one of "Broken Bow":

1) Why does Travis doubt their need for weaponry? As a Boomer, you'd think he'd have first-hand experience of space pirates and, as such, would know how important they are to a ship. Even if it's not carrying an expensive payload at warp 2 on a regular route.
2) In light of "Observer Effect," how does Hoshi manage to get back into Starfleet?
3) If there are so many things in orbit about Earth (such as Yosemitie-3 from "Zero Hour"), why is the spacedock the only thing we ever see?
4) If humans are planing on going into space, why haven't the brass and the pertinent starship captains flipped through the Vulcan database to apprise themselves of the big players in the region - Andorians, Tellarites, Klingons - at least enough to know them by sight? Though, admittedly, the Klingons are a little farther afeild than the humans are likely to go at first (The Delphic Expanse not withstanding), why don't Archer and Trip know what Andorians look like and who they are if they're such big enemies of the Vulcans, their pals for the last century?
5) How does anyone expect the Enterprise go through the Badlands to Kronos and get back in 8 days? And why does no one warn them about the Orions this go around - they would be a good reason to wait until you have weapons up and running in my book.
6) If Enterprise is a vessel of exploration, why was there no science officer picked out beforehand. Did something happen to the one they originally pick out, or was s/he pushed into a secondary role to make room for T'Pol, becoming Chief Astrophysicist or something instead of fullblown Science Officer?
7) Who is in charge when the senior staff is out? Hoshi's in charge in "Terra Prime," but there's at leat 2 other Lts on the ship that we know about other than Malcolm. So is the Chain of Command bridge staff, then everyone else in order of rank? Or something like that? And does Chief Engineer count as bridge staff (as I think somone suggested it doesn't based off VOY, which may be different since it's 2x this Enterprise's size)? And, if not, I'm going to have to call my ex-Army father, explain ENT to him, and get his idea of Chain of Command... which could be painful.
How many officers are on the ship anyway, and what's the usual ratio on modern ships of officers to crewmen?
9) What do XOs in later years - Riker and Chakotay in particular, 'cause Kira seemed to have actual duties - actually do besides sit on the bridge and argue occasionally with the captain when they don't have departments of their own? And the paperwork excuse really can't work for VOY, 'cause who honestly does meaningless paperwork when they're busy trying to cross 70,000 light years and are at least 60 years from contact with Starfleet Command?
10) What happens to the no-frat rule between ENT and TNG? Or TOS for that matter?
11) I know Alelou's explination, but why Porthos? And, while I can see a cat like Spot from TNG working in space, a dog seems more difficult....
12) How many people are in Starfleet at this time? How many ships? How many Admirals?
13) How many Vulcans in the compound?
14) What other aliens are on Earth besides Vulcans and Denobulans? Certainly not Andorians or Tellarites....
15) How come no randomly exploring aliens (besides Vulcans) ever run across Earth and chose to make contact when it's so obivously post-warp?

Just some thoughts for you, Kotik...

[Kotik]

Random thoughts that came to me while betaing part one of "Broken Bow":

1) Why does Travis doubt their need for weaponry? As a Boomer, you'd think he'd have first-hand experience of space pirates and, as such, would know how important they are to a ship. Even if it's not carrying an expensive payload at warp 2 on a regular route.
2) In light of "Observer Effect," how does Hoshi manage to get back into Starfleet?
3) If there are so many things in orbit about Earth (such as Yosemitie-3 from "Zero Hour"), why is the spacedock the only thing we ever see?
4) If humans are planing on going into space, why haven't the brass and the pertinent starship captains flipped through the Vulcan database to apprise themselves of the big players in the region - Andorians, Tellarites, Klingons - at least enough to know them by sight? Though, admittedly, the Klingons are a little farther afeild than the humans are likely to go at first (The Delphic Expanse not withstanding), why don't Archer and Trip know what Andorians look like and who they are if they're such big enemies of the Vulcans, their pals for the last century?
5) How does anyone expect the Enterprise go through the Badlands to Kronos and get back in 8 days? And why does no one warn them about the Orions this go around - they would be a good reason to wait until you have weapons up and running in my book.
6) If Enterprise is a vessel of exploration, why was there no science officer picked out beforehand. Did something happen to the one they originally pick out, or was s/he pushed into a secondary role to make room for T'Pol, becoming Chief Astrophysicist or something instead of fullblown Science Officer?
7) Who is in charge when the senior staff is out? Hoshi's in charge in "Terra Prime," but there's at leat 2 other Lts on the ship that we know about other than Malcolm. So is the Chain of Command bridge staff, then everyone else in order of rank? Or something like that? And does Chief Engineer count as bridge staff (as I think somone suggested it doesn't based off VOY, which may be different since it's 2x this Enterprise's size)? And, if not, I'm going to have to call my ex-Army father, explain ENT to him, and get his idea of Chain of Command... which could be painful.
How many officers are on the ship anyway, and what's the usual ratio on modern ships of officers to crewmen?
9) What do XOs in later years - Riker and Chakotay in particular, 'cause Kira seemed to have actual duties - actually do besides sit on the bridge and argue occasionally with the captain when they don't have departments of their own? And the paperwork excuse really can't work for VOY, 'cause who honestly does meaningless paperwork when they're busy trying to cross 70,000 light years and are at least 60 years from contact with Starfleet Command?
10) What happens to the no-frat rule between ENT and TNG? Or TOS for that matter?
11) I know Alelou's explination, but why Porthos? And, while I can see a cat like Spot from TNG working in space, a dog seems more difficult....
12) How many people are in Starfleet at this time? How many ships? How many Admirals?
13) How many Vulcans in the compound?
14) What other aliens are on Earth besides Vulcans and Denobulans? Certainly not Andorians or Tellarites....
15) How come no randomly exploring aliens (besides Vulcans) ever run across Earth and chose to make contact when it's so obivously post-warp?

Just some thoughts for you, Kotik...

'some thoughts' is the understatement of the century. But you delivered me some great ideas. That'll blowm up "Broken Bow to, like 70 pages or so.

[aadarshinah]

You wound me, Kotik. And after all I've done for you too... *sniffle*



I started out with like 3... and then more kept coming. including:

16) Whose brilliant idea was it to change from practical jumpsuits to miniskirts between ENT and TOS? It's a starship, not an office. I can see the 2peice jacketed uniforms working for officers and such in later years, especially when doing first contacts and all - like the dress blues of today - but certainly not for engineering grunts...

but that doesn't directly relate to ENT, so you're off the hook...

[WarpGirl]

I know a few of these...

4) If humans are planing on going into space, why haven't the brass and the pertinent starship captains flipped through the Vulcan database to apprise themselves of the big players in the region - Andorians, Tellarites, Klingons - at least enough to know them by sight? Though, admittedly, the Klingons are a little farther afeild than the humans are likely to go at first (The Delphic Expanse not withstanding), why don't Archer and Trip know what Andorians look like and who they are if they're such big enemies of the Vulcans, their pals for the last century?

Didn't you hear? Vulcans are terrible school masters who don't want the itty-bitty humans to advance anywhere and get their hands on dangerous information, that could lead to you know... Developing intergalactic relationships with other societies. Humans are just too barbaric for words.

6) If Enterprise is a vessel of exploration, why was there no science officer picked out beforehand. Did something happen to the one they originally pick out, or was s/he pushed into a secondary role to make room for T'Pol, becoming Chief Astrophysicist or something instead of fullblown Science Officer?

Well they said Archer had canidates that he hadn't decided on yet. The Vulcans cut a deal with Starfleet Command to "allow" them to take the Klingon back IF they took along T'Pol, and Starfleet needed their maps. But the real reason is, the writers didn't bother to think too hard about that.

7) Who is in charge when the senior staff is out? Hoshi's in charge in "Terra Prime," but there's at leat 2 other Lts on the ship that we know about other than Malcolm. So is the Chain of Command bridge staff, then everyone else in order of rank? Or something like that? And does Chief Engineer count as bridge staff (as I think somone suggested it doesn't based off VOY, which may be different since it's 2x this Enterprise's size)? And, if not, I'm going to have to call my ex-Army father, explain ENT to him, and get his idea of Chain of Command... which could be painful.

Oooh I'd advise not to go with dad, SF's rules are incoprhensible if you try to compare and contrast with a "real" military organization. However, Bridge Staff is first in the chain, then rank order outside. As to whether the ChEng counts... Depends on the Trek.

10) What happens to the no-frat rule between ENT and TNG? Or TOS for that matter?

Frankly there is no hard and fast frat rules in SF. You can basically sleep with whomever you choose. Some Captains might choose not to sleep with underlings (Janeway, Picard, = stupid) but basically anything goes. Which is nice, because if you like me loved JAG and SG-1 you know torture.

[aadarshinah]

Frankly there is no hard and fast frat rules in SF. You can basically sleep with whomever you choose. Some Captains might choose not to sleep with underlings (Janeway, Picard, = stupid) but basically anything goes.

Thats one of the things I loved about E2 - the crew was in basically the same position as VOY (unable to go home for 100+ years, and basically stranded) but they acted like people, not monks... But that gets me off on a whole VOY tangent that doesn't really belong here (except to say I was watching some of season 2 last week and there was a - minor - story arc, but an arc nonetheless. I about teared up with joy)...

[WarpGirl]

There was plenty of sex on VOY! You just had to know where to look. And there was really good birth control. Anyway yeah no frat rules like the kind they try to enforce in most militaries. Of course in ENT they tried to make it "Captain's discresion" but in the end it doesn't mean much.

[aadarshinah]

So, Kotik, what will it be for your ENT? Monks or just excellent birth control 'til we get to season 3? (*tries and fails to find a smilie that wiggles its eyebrows*)

And, as I think I've stated elsewhere, WG, I've been rewatching VOY by netflix. Have 2 more episodes on season 2 to go - and the only hints at actual sex that might be taking place between the crew is a pair of crewmen kissing in a turbolift and Seska impregnating herself with "Chakotay's" baby. Oh, they may dance around the issue as ST is wont to do, but honestly, you're halfway across the galaxy, it will take you 70 years at least to get home, you need a replacement crew... so why all the birth control?

*shakes head*

[WarpGirl]

You're only on Season 2... Oh OK, well during the next five seasons you'll see that kiddies are not practical. This isn't the E2verse, which was rediculously luxerious and easy... Trust me...

Well according to Phlox they were only a few weeks or months out and people started to pair off. So I doubt they were monks on ENT.

[aadarshinah]

Another question that got me out of bed to post:

17) So there's a grapler instead of a tractor beam. Okay, great, understand that. But a grapler needs rope and space is big... so exactly how much rope is attached to the grapling hooks and where does it all go? Would a mile of rope be enough when ships usually don't pass within thousands of miles of each other? Hmmm...

[enterprikayak]

Another question that got me out of bed to post:

17) So there's a grapple instead of a tractor beam. Okay, great, understand that. But a grapple needs rope and space is big... so exactly how much rope is attached to the grappling hooks and where does it all go? Would a mile of rope be enough when ships usually don't pass within thousands of miles of each other? Hmmm...

Good question. When I look at reels of piping for sprinklers around these farmy parts, they are HUGE. And the piping is, maybe 6", max. A grappler's cord would likely be bigger than 6" diameter, yes? So, yeah, I guess they must have this massive spool somewhere in there. And it's gotta be big, the spool, or it wouldn't unwind very fast. Maybe it stays straight in a long conduit along the top or bottom surface of the ship?

But, you're right, you'd need kilometers of it!

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry that grapple line was a bad idea, even if it gave us a dramatic does of Trip heroics. I saw that and this was my face I kid you not..

Now to be fair, I like the fact that ENT tech was unique in the fact some things Trek takes so for granted either didn't exist or were in their infancy but for god's sake!