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That's what we're here to discuss.

I am glad. I hadn't understood.

And my point is that there is nothing to say that Vulcan teachings have any roll in personal appearence. Therefore because Vulcans are individuals they would be able to determine the logic of cosmetic surgery for themselves. Not ascribe to any social construct.

Having thought about WG's question, though it was never expressly said how society would influence an individual's decision on plastic surgery, one only needs to observe them in general to know that it's going to matter. Vulcan is not an individualistic society. They value family honor. They are more concerned about "the needs of the many" than "what's in it for me?" They observe archaic and barbaric customs in the face of enlightenment because that's the way it's always been done and no better reason than that.

So yeah, it follows that social pressure will influence the decisions and behaviors of the individual.

Aquarius wrote:Having thought about WG's question, though it was never expressly said how society would influence an individual's decision on plastic surgery, one only needs to observe them in general to know that it's going to matter. Vulcan is not an individualistic society. They value family honor. They are more concerned about "the needs of the many" than "what's in it for me?" They observe archaic and barbaric customs in the face of enlightenment because that's the way it's always been done and no better reason than that.

And whose to say that's a bad thing?

In any case there has never any been evidence that Vulcan society would put pressure on people to look a certain way. Where is the logic in having the advanced medical technology that can treat horrible injurues completly and not using it to heal scars? Dermal regenerators are a common part of medical treatment. A form of cosmetic surgery. If Vulcans had an issue with it, we would have seen Spock, T'Pol, or Tuvok say no.

Why is it a bad thing to do things the old way "just because" in the face of a new, non-barbaric way? Ask yourself that the next time, say, your finger gets infected. Wanna take care of it the "old way", without Neosporin or oral antibiotics, hope it heals, and if it gets worse, cut it off? Sounds fabulous, doesn't it? Makes perfect sense. Sign me up for old school.

Um excuse me what are you talking about? As far as I know their are no "new ways" to deal with any of the so-called Barbaric traditions of the Vulcan people. So I am completely lost as to what you're trying to say.

It's not really all that hard:

I made the point that Vulcans are not an individualistic society, they are a collectivist society, sometimes to the point of the illogical practice of doing things the "old way" just because that's the way it's always been done. (IE, their marriage customs, as discussed in another thread--there are much more civilized ways to give a woman a way out than making her issue a challenge that will sentence one of the men to death, and even then she might not end up with the guy she actually likes.)

You claimed that going along with the old way when there are new and better options isn't a bad thing.

I gave you an example where it most certainly is a bad thing...unless the idea of losing a finger appeals to you?

Pretty straight-forward.

Now, bringing this back to cosmetic surgery, the point of bringing up the fact that they are a collectivist society is to suggest that social pressure will in fact influence what an individual believes and how they will behave, more so than in an individualistic society, like most of North America and Western Europe. Even members of individualistic societies are influenced to some degree by popular opinion. Growing up in the 70s I remember a prevailing attitude that plastic surgery was for the rich and bimbos, unless it was something like fixing a deformity or injury. Eventually, the upper-middle-class hausfraus were getting it so as to remain attractive to their husbands and not be traded in for younger models. Now, clinics are extending you credit so just about anyone can get a boob job or tummy tuck or eye lift. While a few individuals bucked the "popular opinion" of the previous times and got it any way, it didn't become popularized or an option for most individuals until society relaxed its views on what kind of person would get plastic surgery.


Applying this to Vulcan lifestyles, there is a certain logic to putting one back the way they were before...but if the prevailing attitude of society was that such a thing would be vain and unnecessary because a person's appearance doesn't matter beyond being tidy and clean, so what the individual decides may depend on which way society's general attitude toward cosmetic surgery sways.

Yes, there will be exceptions. But we can't exactly poll each individual fictional Vulcan to find out where they stand on the subject, so for now we can only amuse ourselves by discussing how we think Vulcans, in general, view the question of plastic surgery.

I realize that doing things the "old way" isn't always a good thing. However when you don't have a "new thing" to fix the old problem then you're stuck losing a finger. Better than losing your LIFE!!!!

As for plastic surgery, I again need an answer to questions... Where is the logic in not completely healing an injury (including scars) if you posess the technology to do so? Have we ever seen a Vulcan say no to a dermal regenerator?

Not that it's relevant to the point, but in what way do Vulcans not have a "new thing" to replace an "old thing"?

Aquarius, were you arguing that Vulcans wouldn't get plastic surgery? I thought you were saying they would - as long as it wouldn't pose an unnecessary risk or use undue resources. It's just that their reasons would have more to do with fitting into the collective norm than individual vanity, and that if the technology existed to fix something, they would do it.

I'm confused.

Honestly? I haven't decided in my own mind if they would or wouldn't. What I am saying is because how their society is oriented--collectivism--then what society thinks is going to influence the decision.

Birth defect? Like an extra thumb or something like that, that has a medical basis in an argument for doing it? Sure, yeah, I think they'd do it.

Restoration of one's appearance after an injury? I'm still of two minds on that one. If it weren't financially prohibitive, I can see an argument for the "logic" of restoring one to their previous appearance--putting things back the way they were. But...while Vulcan's appreciate beauty, it also is not logical to be "vain", so if the scars or whatever aren't hindering one's ability to lead a normal productive life, then I can also see a social argument against it. I mean, say Koss got a mean plasma burn and lost half his face like MU Trip: their society arranges/forces marriages, so it's not like the dude has to worry about his previous status as a babe magnet--he gets to drag one off by the hair later on any way, regardless of what he looks like.

As for the purely vain reasons, like putting some junk in one's trunk or going from your training bra to zeppelins, I think that's a big hell no on the Vulcan social attitude toward plastic surgery.

Yeah, I think we said in the upthread - they would restore appearance, fix a flaw - but they wouldn't act out of vanity. Makes sense to me.

bluetiger wrote:I am not speaking of breast enhancement or butt implants, but would a Vulcan have a facial scar removed? I can't decide if they would view it as unnecessary or if the fact that it drew people's attention to them would be a motivation. What do you think?

The origional topic.

WarpGirl wrote:

bluetiger wrote:I am not speaking of breast enhancement or butt implants, but would a Vulcan have a facial scar removed? I can't decide if they would view it as unnecessary or if the fact that it drew people's attention to them would be a motivation. What do you think?

The origional topic.

I'm not sure I understand what your angle is here...