TnT and public contact

[Silverbullet]

As written in Canon, Vulcans must lead a very boring life. They cut themselves off from others, don 't seem to enjoy life at all because they are so damned uptight. No merry making like dancing, singing. I wonder if they have an appreciation of beauty as humans do, Art in its many forms.

I wonder if they actually would enjoy Sex or if it is just a means for them to achieve an end like procreation. When T'Pol seduces Trip was it mechanical? It certainly seemed planned out not spontanous. Kiss Trip, drop Robe, stun him with the goods, Kiss him again, strip him down, drag him in to bed, have Sex, don't talk.

[pdsldl]

Spock played an instrument. T'Pol told Trip Vulcans appreciated beauty. They appreciate things just not the same outwardly way we do. They have emotions and I don't think T'Pol would have freaked out the morning after if she hadn't felt some intense emotions/sensations she was unprepared for. Her seduction was planned but not mechanical from what I saw. Vulcans just have to keep their emotions reigned in or risk being out of control. And I think they're taught that they keep their sex lives and emotions/interactions with their mate private, except maybe in life or death situations. It's simple unacceptable to display such things in public.

[Aquarius]

I think her seduction of Trip was only "planned" to the point that pre-Cole, she knew she liked him and she was trying to get closer to him...sort of like someone who's been out in the cold for such a long time and she sees someone else's fire and she really wants to sit close to it, but she's too afraid to ask so she just keeps edging closer to it, little bit by little bit, hoping he'll notice and ask her to join him, while in the meantime trying to take what little warmth she can get from it.

Then, Cole enters the picture, invites herself to sit down in the space T'Pol had hoped to occupy in front of the fire, and T'Pol realizes that if Cole gets comfortable, T'Pol may never truly experience the fire's warmth. So her plan of tentatively edging closer and closer has failed, and she feels pressured to act quickly or freeze her ass off forever. So a more quickly cobbled-together Plan B emerges, in which T'Pol wears a whole lot less to the next neuropressure session with Trip From that point on, Trip won't let anyone else sit in front of his fire with him...but unfortunately, it also means he has to sit in front of it alone for a while, until he and T'Pol figure things out.

[pdsldl]

I can imagine that fire burned a lot hotter than she was ready to accept and she stepped way back before she got swallowed up in the flames. She did leave him with hope though when she didn't say anything to his wanting to continue with NP. Had she been truly rejecting him she would have quickly doused the embers.

If Trip were going to push for any public contact I would think he would have after that time period. But with the exceptions of touching between them when alone he never did so I can't see it becoming an issue down the line because he respected her.

[Aquarius]

I can imagine that fire burned a lot hotter than she was ready to accept and she stepped way back before she got swallowed up in the flames. She did leave him with hope though when she didn't say anything to his wanting to continue with NP. Had she been truly rejecting him she would have quickly doused the embers.

Precisely. You can be afraid of something while stile wanting it very, very badly.

And you hit the nail on the head with the respect thing. I don't think he'd ever push the PDA thing. He doesn't want to change who/what she is...any compromises she makes to her usual principles on the subject will happen over time and organically...Vulcan finger-touching evolving into hand-holding, which is very similar. Just because he doesn't make these kinds of demands of her, it doesn't mean she won't occasionally surprise him in an attempt to meet him halfway or something, give him what she thinks he wants or will enjoy. And there are degrees of intimacy considered "appropriate" for the public to consider: swapping spit in the back row during movie night is out, but--eventually--being seen holding hands during an off-duty walk through the corridors might be okay.

And I'm talking about everyday life situations here. Obviously those high-adrenaline situations like, Trip's life is in danger, he's as good as dead, and thanks to some quick thinking and a last-minute beam out and Trip's okay and in one piece...? Sure, affection will likely trump dignity there regardless of who's around. Remember, Spock smiled in "Amok Time" when he discovered Kirk was still alive. And Much like Spock, T'Pol would "logic away" outburst, finding a justifiable reason for it to happen, no matter how thinly woven the thread of logic.

[Asso]

I do, however, want to point out that I think you're overlooking something pretty obvious in your counter-argument to the third point: whether or not T'Pol seemed to pay attention to whether or not she and Trip were alone in the corridor, it has been canonically established that her sense of hearing and sense of smell is superior to a human's. She'd be able to determine pretty quickly if anyone was in close proximity without being obvious about looking around.

Furthermore, as pointed out by myself and others, this was a special circumstance, and while she may have been less concerned about her privacy and dignity in this particular instance, it's not a free pass for assuming that she would adopt this as regular behavior.

My comment to this is below your second quote.

I don't want to get into an item-by-item debate, because frankly when it comes to opinions as diametrically opposed as ours, it's pointless and it becomes tiresome for the other people following the thread to read.

Just so.

[pdsldl]

We definitely know Vulcans have intense emotions. Tolaris and his anger, T'Pol losing it w/Archer, smashing her padd (Her control was stripped away by TD but the emotions must have always been there but suppressed) so outburst wouldn't be unexpected as she got closer to Trip and let her emotional attachment to him grow.

[Asso]

...And yes most of us have very definite beliefs that our own lives have taught us and those heart and soul perceptions should be our deepest held beliefs and shouldn't be changeable with the way the wind is currently blowing but they are changeable with the right amount of time or the right set of circumstances or sometimes the right person(s) to show us what we didn't know before.

Nothing truer that that.
And that's why I love Trip and T'Pol.

My dear friend, you bring grist to my mill.

[panyasan]

It's no wonder that Cole smacking Trip's butt sent her into a tailspin. Not only was it more than what she's accustomed to seeing in mixed company, but the implied possession got to her on a personal level. To witness it there in front of everyone must've freaked her out on more levels than most of us can imagine.

I never thought of that one! Great thought.

(T'Pol) she knew she liked him and she was trying to get closer to him...sort of like someone who's been out in the cold for such a long time and she sees someone else's fire and she really wants to sit close to it, but she's too afraid to ask so she just keeps edging closer to it, little bit by little bit, hoping he'll notice and ask her to join him, while in the meantime trying to take what little warmth she can get from it.

Then, Cole enters the picture, invites herself to sit down in the space T'Pol had hoped to occupy in front of the fire, and T'Pol realizes that if Cole gets comfortable, T'Pol may never truly experience the fire's warmth. So her plan of tentatively edging closer and closer has failed, and she feels pressured to act quickly or freeze her ass off forever. So a more quickly cobbled-together Plan B emerges

I really love this image of fire and sparks. It also shows the lonelyness T'Pol is experiencing and how Trips warmth is warming her heart.

I don't think I have much to add from what already been said. I agree that T'Pol would slowly grow to express herself more in a Human way, but she would never be very comfortable expressing herself very much affectionate in public. She doesn't have to, because it doesn't fit with her (and as T'Pol as Vulcan). From personal experience: after living for two years in a non touch society, I was almost shocked at the airport when my sisters greeted me in the customs of my country (three kisses on the cheek - that's the greeting between family and friends). So for T'Pol growing up her entire life in a non touch culture (especially public), showing affection in public would be even more strange to her. BTW, I was not bothered by the holding hands in Kotiks story. Some how it fitted into the story.

[Asso]

... Some how it fitted into the story.

That's the real point.

[Silverbullet]

I have always wished that the seduction scene in Harbinger had been carried on. I would like to have seen what the writers would have them say. We never got any indication of how long they were in Bed. How many times they may have copulated. What they may have said to one another. This may have allowed the writers to address T'Pol beliefs about displayes of affectiooon and why she backed off the next morning.

Like other aspects of T'Pol the writers were all over the place with her attitude toward public displays of emotion. Having her Kiss Trip in the hall was so different from her attitude when he returned to Enterprise by that perilous climb and saving the ship by a Cold Start to the Engines which she thought impossible. No reactioin much at all.

Actually, in the series bound is the only time when she gave any indication of emotion towards Trip that ws not anger and jealousy. Okay, she helped him with his grief over his sister in the Forgotten but that was not an emotion directed at him other than a friend helping a friend in need,

[panyasan]

I don't know, SB. T'Pol is a Vulcan so the way she shows things maybe different we used to. You see this in different cultures also. My family went to a difficult time a while back. My American friends hugged me, brought food and sang songs for me. I love them for their actions. My Japanese friends were silent, they touched my shoulder very slightly and said "It's difficult". I loved them too, because they did the same thing as my American friends, only in a different manner.

But I agree with you - Harbinger is rather blunt in it's approach. A bit more story around the night and what happened would have been nice.

[pdsldl]

Actually, in the series bound is the only time when she gave any indication of emotion towards Trip that ws not anger and jealousy. Okay, she helped him with his grief over his sister in the Forgotten but that was not an emotion directed at him other than a friend helping a friend in need,

She distraught and cried in "The Observer Effect" I think right after She finds out Trip is unconscoius and most likely will not wake up.

[WarpGirl]

Well Quite honestly, I think that T'Pol's rules on PDA would depend on where they were, who they were with, and what they were doing.

1. I cannot see them holding hands and being extremely physically close together in public on Enterprise and not only for cultural reasons. T'Pol's mindset as an FO would be an issue here IMO. And I believe Trip does respect her professional values. So most of the hand holding would be done in the dark during movie night. And if one of them were near death I could see short bursts of contact with only Phlox around.

2. If they were on earth at Trip's family home... I could see them holding hands, exchanging kisses on the cheek, hugs, and puting their arms around each other. They would be with family in a private setting. If they were in public I can't see them touching too much, but they'd probably do so in isoloated spaces.

3. If they were on Vulcan, Vulcan rules apply.