TnT and public contact

[Kotik]

Transwarp raised a good point in the comment section of "Slopes of Andoria". He doubts that Trip and T'Pol would hold hands and not be aware of it, because it is considered intimate behaviour. I want to outline my reasons for writing it that way and why I think it is realistic. Maybe we can also hear other author's ideas on the subject.

1. Trip is human and unlike T'Pol he's not a touch-telepath, so most Vulcan gestures - with the Oz'hesta being the only acceptable public gesture - do not hold much of an appeal for him. T'Pol knows that and she also knows that none of them can keep up his culture 100% without depriving the other. Trip must cut back on his needs for public expression of affection (likely kissing in public is out of question, probably hugging, too) and T'Pol must make some concessions to allow gestures that are not customary on Vulcan. I can realistically imagine that allowing him to hold hands is such a step towards a cultural compromise that is satisfactory for both of them.

2. They are on a human ship. Holding hands is a perfectly acceptable behaviour in Human society. I can imagine that T'Pol would distinguish between what to allow on Vulcan and what to allow on Earth.

3. When they are holding hands - and T'Pol therefore has touch-telepathic insight into Trip's emotional condition - I can easily see, how she was distracted by something that went on in Trip's mind, preventing her from releasing his hand before they enter the Captains mess.

That's my 2 cents on the topic

[Enerdhil]

You can add 1 cent more on the subject; in several episodes T'Pol takes the hand of other crew members who help her to stand up or entering the shuttlepod (and without counting on spreading DECON gel on Trip's body). In North Star she holds to Trip while on his back for the horse ride. So that the 'professional' touching is somewhat relaxed in respect to the 'intimate' one. Under this assumption, Kotik's use of their arrival at Archer's mess can be thought as they extrapolated the professional touch to an intimate one without too much thinking about it. Pure reflex

[Asso]

Mh, I know I repeat myself, but sometimes I really think we tend frequently to chew uselessly ourselves into little mental bits.
Adherence, plausibility, tidiness (if needed) etc etc etc...
But, above all, enjoyment, in writing and in reading.
As (inter alia) I said as a comment:
It was so much cute this image!
You know: in the name of a great literature, all (nearly) is licit (at least for me)

[Transwarp]

I'll add another thirty-seven millicents to the pot:

First, I agree completely that T'Pol WOULD hold hands with Trip, for the very reasons you suggest. And, yes, it was cute.

I just don't think they would do it while on duty.

Probably the reason I noticed this in the first place is because my wife and I were both on active duty in the US Army together. We were stationed at Ft Bragg, North Carolina, married and living together on post, but in different units. I was in the 82d, she was with SOCOM.

We would NEVER have held hands while on duty, or engaged in any other form of PDA (Public Display of Affection). It just wasn't considered professional. It has nothing to do with regulations (no fraternization was involved, we were the same rank and in separate units), it's just the military culture.

So, not only do I think T'Pol would have known they were doing it, so would Trip.

[Kotik]

It was so much cute this image!
You know: in the name of a great literature, all (nearly) is licit (at least for me)

Transwarp has a really good point. Not all is realistic, just because it is cute. I tend to think that one can do quite a lot of things as long as it is realistic.

As an example - a lot of people would probably cry 'unrealistic' if someone wrote a story in which T'Pol sings. Yet one of the Startrek movies showed Spock singing "row the boat" with Bones and Kirk, so if there's sufficient explanation as to why something, that seems ooc, happens, it can still appear realistic.

[pdsldl]

But would they consider eating dinner in the captain mess 'being on duty'? You're invited yes but they did it often (seemed like most every night) so it may have been or become more casual. They didn't often speak of work they told stories, about their past, etc... so it may have been more social time.

[Kotik]

We would NEVER have held hands while on duty, or engaged in any other form of PDA (Public Display of Affection). It just wasn't considered professional. It has nothing to do with regulations (no fraternization was involved, we were the same rank and in separate units), it's just the military culture.

So, not only do I think T'Pol would have known they were doing it, so would Trip.

Good point and I agree that they wouldn't do it on duty, but

a) They were guests in the Captain's Mess, so it is reasonable to assume that they were off-duty, either pre-shift or post-shift.
b) I left it unspoken as to why they 'forgot' to break the hand-hold, so it is open to anyone's imagination.
c) They are still somewhat emotionally shaken from their ordeal of burying their child recently. In my imagination it was actually T'Pol, who instigated the contact in the first place. Due to the touch-telepathic connection, she draws strength, calm and reassurance from Trip's mental presence. Their bond isn't yet fully mature at that time.

[Asso]

I could say: why must things be realistic?
But I prefer to say: is enough that they are plausible.

[Transwarp]

Realistic has its place, but Plausible works for me, too.

[pdsldl]

Push characters outside their boundaries but not before you've set it up so it is plausible and not totally out of left field. I still want to feel like I recognize who they are.

[crystalswolf]

As an example - a lot of people would probably cry 'unrealistic' if someone wrote a story in which T'Pol sings. Yet one of the Startrek movies showed Spock singing "row the boat" with Bones and Kirk, so if there's sufficient explanation as to why something, that seems ooc, happens, it can still appear realistic.[/quote]

Here's a penny or two. I don't know about Vulcans not singing across the board. I think certain songs would be okay so long as they are not dripping with emotion. "Row Your Boat" has very little emotion to it and takes a certain level of concentration (hold your tune and chorus while others sing theirs). For all we know, that could be the only song Spock could sing with this human friends and that's why they sing it.

Personally, I think what fits best with Vulcans are actions that do not have any emotional connection. Or at least if they do, there's significant room for plausible deniability. As in the case of holding hands. If T'Pol could explain it as an action not connected to emotion in any way, then it would be considered acceptable. (two cents clinking in the bucket)

[pdsldl]

CW first off I live your avatar. And second can you give me an example of what you mean by action with no emotional connection, especially where her relationship to Trip is concerned?

[crystalswolf]

Pdsldl, Asso gets all the credit for that!

What I had in mind, and what I think of when it comes to Vulcans and touching, is (I believe) the Victorian Era where unmarried couples (and perhaps married) were discouraged from showing affection, especially through touching and in public. And when couples did touch, it was for more practical, non-affectionate reasons... although I would think they made any excuse to "find" these reasons.

TnT I could see holding hands if there were balance issues (someone learning to balance during an activity the other has mastered). I could see them holding hands to not separate if there were in a HUGE, densely packed crowd. I could see them linger hand-holding after climbing and helping the other up, you know... to steady the other person

Things like that. I'm sure there are other situations, but those are the two in my mind right now.

[pdsldl]

Thanks and I agree. There are always situations where a couple cannot or at least shouldn't hold hands etc... but when a legitimate excuse comes up they might linger a little longer than called for. With TnT I buy them holding hands as a more human and comfortable way to have contact between mates. In the Babel episode Spock's parents were shown walking together with their fingers touching which I always thought would be awkward to do walking for any distance so for T'Pol to hold Trip's hand instead seems reasonable. I've read stories where they hugged or danced and exhibited other forms of PDA and enjoyed the storied that were well written but found them to be to OOC to be believable TnT characterizations. T'Pol would make compromises but I don't think Trip would ask her to change on that front, especially after knowing her and her values for years.

[Asso]

... I've read stories where they hugged or danced and exhibited other forms of PDA and enjoyed the storied that were well written but found them to be to OOC to be believable TnT characterizations. T'Pol would make compromises but I don't think Trip would ask her to change on that front, especially after knowing her and her values for years.

But people change, and I guess that T'Pol as well as Trip have to change very much to reach their goal.
There's an idea that I had and have: let alone that, most likely, T'Pol is a very peculiar Vulcan (and I think Trip is a very peculiar Human, too), if really they manage to get together, the outcome will be a woman, no longer really Vulcan, and a man, no longer really Human.