Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[aadarshinah]

I'm curious what these priestess might be like. Would they be looked down on by most Vulcans for being involved with such a "terrible" thing as pon farr or respected? Would they be young, unmarried Vulcans or older widows? What about the children that could be potentially born of such unions - would they be stimatized or accepted by the father's family?

Given that T'Pol doesn't seem to have any problem with the idea of the crew going down Risa and, er, becoming acuainted with the locals, I'd gather the priestesses would be respected, or at least acknolwledged as a practical nessecity.

[justTripn]

It's not a "donation" if its being mandated.

I don't know if you are replying to my post about the proposal to allow people to sell their kidneys (at a price near $15,000) but just to be clear: this is a proposal about voluntary donation.

[Rigil Kent]

No, I was mostly responding to the article where that guy was implying that it was murder for someone to not "donate" a kidney. It read to me like more soft tyranny, where a donation was being "mandated." Wasn't aimed at you in the slightest. I'm all for people getting paid to do something like this; simple supply and demand. Make it worth something, and humanity will find a way.

I'm curious what these priestess might be like. Would they be looked down on by most Vulcans for being involved with such a "terrible" thing as pon farr or respected?

I'd actually see it as a little of both. With how embarrassed Vulcans seem to be about the whole mating cycle, it's logical (pardon the pun) to presume that seeing these priestess would cause all sorts of uncomfortable emotions to come to the forefront as they are a constant reminder of the entire cycle. At the same time, I could see them being honestly respected for being capable of doing this sort of thing for multiple individuals - I've always perceived Vulcans to be biologically wired toward monogamy, so from that perspective, individuals capable of divorcing themselves from their biology to better serve their society would have to be seen as impressive. Or at least necessary.

Would they be young, unmarried Vulcans or older widows?

Why not both?

What about the children that could be potentially born of such unions - would they be stimatized or accepted by the father's family?

What a fascinating question. My initial reaction is to state that stigmatizing such offspring is patently illogical, but given the sort of travails that Spock endured as a kid, one has to admit that its probable such a stigma would inevitably appear. I certainly like the idea of the children being accepted by the father's family (does being a bastard carry the same stigma in Vulcan society that it used to carry on Earth?), but the cynic in me wonders if the intelligence community would not be more interested in them. I'm reminded of the exchange between Vesper Lynd and James Bond in "Casino Royale":

Vesper Lynd: All right... by the cut of your suit, you went to Oxford or wherever. Naturally you think human beings dress like that. But you wear it with such disdain, my guess is you didn't come from money, and your school friends never let you forget it. Which means that you were at that school by the grace of someone else's charity: hence that chip on your shoulder. And since your first thought about me ran to "orphan," that's what I'd say you are.
[he smiles but says nothing]
Vesper Lynd: Oh, you are? I like this poker thing. And that makes perfect sense! Since MI6 looks for maladjusted young men, who give little thought to sacrificing others in order to protect queen and country. You know... former SAS types with easy smiles and expensive watches.

So I could totally see something like that...

Given that T'Pol doesn't seem to have any problem with the idea of the crew going down Risa and, er, becoming acuainted with the locals

Yeah, but is that example really accurate? At that point, T'Pol was still looking down on humanity somewhat as backward and more than a little socially primitive, and as we've seen on the show, Vulcans are certainly superior snobs who hate anyone poking into their own closets.

[honeybee]

Since I love CW's story Let'thieri - I think of it like that. In that story, young girls apprentice with priestesses, not serving clients until they are older. When a priestess reaches a certain age, she retires from service and becomes a caretaker of sorts to the younger women of the order. In that story, the main priestess, L'Sar, is chosen for/chooses this life because she is considered to be too emotional and empathetic for mainstream Vulcan life. Her parents break her childhood betrothal because of this. Of course, none of this is canon.

What would happen if a child came of one of these "sacred" unions is a completely fascinating question. (CW? Are you out there? Plot bunny afoot!)

I definitely think the Vulcans would see a distinct difference between a human getting laid on vacation for fun and a Vulcan satisfying his pon farr - one is for pleasure the other is for biological necessity. Although, some humans I know would argue in favor of getting laid on vacation as a biological necessity despite the fact that it wouldn't kill them to go without.

But in 2D2N - it seems T'Pol is being snooty but at the same time accepting. She knows human males, in particular, are better off when they have sex and she's suggested Risa as a place where that can happen. There's no doubt she seems to think that Vulcans are better in that they only need it every seven years, but she's not about to suggest humans go without satisfying their needs. She seems to think it would benefit the crew.

[justTripn]

Rigil said:

No, I was mostly responding to the article where that guy was implying that it was murder for someone to not "donate" a kidney. It read to me like more soft tyranny, where a donation was being "mandated." Wasn't aimed at you in the slightest. I'm all for people getting paid to do something like this; simple supply and demand. Make it worth something, and humanity will find a way.

Amen to that.

It would be logical to use birth control, but then, accidents do happen. Sounds like an interesting story starter for the preistess to get pregnant.

[honeybee]

I would assume Vulcans would have a good understanding of birth control and how to use it, and it would be logical for the priestess to use it.

If it were a lifetime calling, perhaps the priestess would have her tubes tied. But that, like other forms of birth control can fail. Rarely, but it can happen. A birth control fail could create a world of issues for both the "client" and the priestess.

More interestingly, since the context of this discussion is the right to change one's mind, what if the priestess decided to have a child? Would she have that right? I would certainly think that she would at least discuss it with a client first - and if she didn't - what would be the ethical implications for her, the child and the father? Since I see these priestesses as doing good, I can't imagine what would lead to that kind of ethical lapse but it is not implausible, especially if a woman entered an order at a very young age at the behest of her family.

Also, would it be possible for a priestess and client to fall in affection (aka love)? Say, widower shows up for pon farr. They click. . . they correspond. He manages not to find another mate over the course of seven years. . .come back. . . this time wants to bond with her. I would hope this would be allowed.

[crystalswolf]

Thanks for the Let'thieri attention. I actually blushed while catching up on the thread.

I didn't think they would have any accidents. The way I saw them, they had who knows how many thousands of years to perfect a clean slate after each assignment (advanced meditation, special minerals and herbs) as well as probably the most advanced contraceptives available on Vulcan as a back up. Mistakes like those in their line of work didn't seem very likely for Vulcans. Although it's just me. I'm sure someone here could make it work

Now in the story if she wanted to have a baby, I would think it could complicate things quite a bit. The chain is suppose to continue unbroken and if one leaves, the elder is stuck wasting perhaps several years training her and must start over. I did have the thought that some of the lines could have been broken and their numbers have slowly decreased over the millennia either because of death, to have a baby, or a relationship.

As for relationships, because of the circumstances of how they meet, I don't think anything would come of it. At least the way I saw them, they work very hard to purge any connection they may have had with their assignment because they are trained to know their attachment isn't real. Now if they met someone while visiting family... that's a different story.

Although I could see someone curious enough to communicate with their (priest or) priestess but I would think Sar or someone of her rank would stomp on that quickly.

[Brandyjane]

Let me add my praise to your story, crystalswolf. In my own personal Star Trek world, I've decided that your take on the pon farr priestesses is the way it is.

[crystalswolf]

Thank you, BrandyJane.

It's funny, I didn't know there were other priestess stories until Let'thieri went to beta, Honeybee, and was told someone had already written a story about them (Distracted's "Secret Service").

There were a few similarities but then there were some areas that were very different. You may want to give it a read because you may like Distracted's ideas or a mixture of both.

[honeybee]

It doesn't surprise me that more than one writer worked with the same concept of "sacred prostitution" being part of Vulcan society. As someone pointed out in the upthread, it has a long history on Earth and would be a very logical thing in a society with pon farr. I took a Mesopotamian Archeology class in grad school (nonfic writers were supposed to take classes in topics that interested them). It's a fascinating dynamic. My professor floated the common theory that Gilgamesh's refusal to mate with the Goddess Inanna was probably based on the historic figure's refusal to participate in one of the temple rituals.

[Kotik]

I'm not sure that it is warranted to call it 'sacred prostitution', as prostitution means offering intimacy for personal gain. Pon-farr being an inevitability, mating to help a fellow Vulcan to survive pon-farr ranks up there with a medical service. Vulcan and human views on the act are rather different. Vulcans do not appear to think of mating as a show of affection, they have a much more pragmatic view on it. Noone has the unique insight of T'Pol

[aadarshinah]

"Medical Prostitution" then?

[Kotik]

It's the noun I object to, not the adjective

[honeybee]

Well, I argued when I beta-ed CW's story not to call it prostitution given the hateful moral judgments people associate with that term, as well as the fact that no money would be exchanged. However, the temple priestesses portrayed in the stories by Distracted and CW were clearly inspired by what is called sacred prostitution on Earth and the rituals and traditions that surround it.

In CW's stories, the priestesses do practice their calling with grace and respect, if not outright affection towards their clients. It's certainly not portrayed as a cold act, given the emotional vulnerability of their clients. Discretion becomes key because outside of pon farr, the emotion experienced by the clients is taboo. The dignity of the client appears paramount.

[aadarshinah]

I'm not saying I don't agree. I'm just curious if anyone's ever tried to beat a prostiution charge here on earth by calling it "Medical" prostituion.... too many law and orders.