Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[honeybee]

Sorry, SB, you are 100% wrong on this. The listening station was in violation of a treaty that the Vulcans signed. And I am well aware of the history of the cold war, and the reasons why listening stations would exist.

However, I am also aware that in most civilized countries - using sacred religious sanctuaries or spaces is considered unethical, especially if the enemy has agreed, for example in a treaty such as the ones the Vulcans were breaking, not to violate the sanctity of the space. For the same reasons it is considered unethical to use civilizations as shields, the military and intelligence communities are not supposed to use religious sanctuaries for military purposes. It would be the same as using Red Cross workers or volunteers as spies or civilians as human shields. Unethical to the extreme.

Text:

"REED: Violence in a sanctuary, Captain?
ARCHER: Very disrespectful. Boy, did it feel good. All this time they've been calling these monks liars, and all this time they've been right.
REED: They've got enough equipment down there to see what any Andorian is having for breakfast.
T'POL: I've completed my scans.
ARCHER: Give it to him.
T'POL: Sir?
ARCHER: Give it to him. (she hands the scanner to Shran) You've got what you came for. Now get out of here.
SHRAN: How do we know you won't attack our vessel.
ARCHER: The Vulcans violated your treaty. Your people ought to know about it. (to T'Pol) You have a problem with that? "
T'POL: Your communicator. (Reed hands it over) T'Pol to Enterprise.
TRAVIS [OC]: Go ahead.
T'POL: The Andorian ship will be leaving the surface momentarily. They're free to go.
TRAVIS [OC]: Acknowledged.
SHRAN: We're in your debt.
ARCHER: (to Vulcan) Thanks for the tour. "

Archer sides with the Andorians because they are right. T'Pol does for the same reason, and she shows moral courage by - at personal risk - indicating to the Andorians that the treaty and the as well as the honor of the Vulcan people meant something to at least one Vulcan.

[aadarshinah]

Again, I totally agree with you. In fact, if T'Pol had been previously married and had a bad experience, it could explain why she is so reluctant to go back home to marry Koss.
It could also go a long way toward explaining why she's so weird around Trip in regards to a relationship. In my ideal world, she married her first mate when he went into pon farr for the first time (before they were twenty), and they were together for at least one or two more mating cycles. Being a more emotional than normal Vulcan, she loved him more than was entirely appropriate in her culture, and when he died, it hit her hard. As ENT begins, she's only just getting over it, and knowing how badly this hurt, it explains why she's so reticent about getting involved with a short-lived human.

And just to be ironic, I'd have her first mate have died exactly nine months to the day before Trip was born.

Brilliant as always. Wish it were true.

It also annoyed me that she was the oldest one (unless Phlox was older, which is never really established - I know in my Endeavour stuff, I stated that he was but that's just 'cause I liked the idea) yet was consistently written as less mature than a teenager at times.

Curious, has it ever been cannonically determined what the quivolent ages are in Humans and Vulcans? I know we generally get by on the Vulcans-live-twice-as-long-so-a-60-yr-old-Vulcan-is-equal-to-a-30-yr-old-human, but is that really the case? I mean, my memories of TOS are sketchy at best, but I don't remember anything ever as having been said about Spock growing up faster than a normal Vulcan, which would be the case if the Vulcan's double lifespan translated that perfectly - well, unless you get into heterosis, or hybrid vigour....

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone knows if there's a definitive this-human-age equals that-Vulcan-age chart or formula or something from cannon.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, What Treaty? Can you cite anywhere that the Vulcans and Andorians signed a Treaty like that? As Rigel pointed out T'Pol was following orders that does not mean she agreed with them. As far as signaling the Andorian ship was free to go what else could she do? Archer had already said they were free to leave. He was wrong to make her do that he shold have.

The whole episode stinks for all that matters.

As I say, Shran would have cited the Treaty as justification for what he was doing. since he did not there was no treaty in effect. The writers put that Treaty crap in Archers mouth after in the beginning they had Archer say he knew nothing about Vulcans. How in Hell would he know about a Treaty if he was ignorant about Vulcans completely. T'Pol would have known about one from her days in the Security Service and she didn't say a thing to Archer about Vulcans breaking any Treaty and being dishonorable and she had plenty of opportuity to.

Writers threw that in at the end to justify what Acher was doing. Pure Horse Pucky.

I have thought often that the writers and TPTB believed thier demographics was stupid, pimply faced 14 year old boys. But it wasn't the demographic for the series was grown intelligent people many with a military background. That is why this Episode is so bad because it violates everything known. Gene Rodenbury said he wanted as much reality as possible in the Star Trek world. he knew that there would be technobabble and SciFi which the viewers would have to accept and suspend thier disbelief but he wanted as much reality in the series as possible. so, this episode goes against what Roddenbury would have accepted.

[honeybee]

Shran cited the treaty in the episode, Silverbullet. You're free to ignore the text of the episode (cited above) all you like, however, I would hope most of our military as well as educated civilians would be informed on the contents of the Geneva Protocols which lay out the terms for respecting clergy and religious edifices. As long as they do not engage in military or intelligence activities, they are not considered viable target/combatants.

I have no proof that the treaty (again cited several times in the episode and also in Shadows of P'Jem) was based on the Geneva Protocols - but the fact the the Vulcans were violation of it is mentioned several times. But since you seem to be under the delusion that no such treaty existed, it's a pointless argument.

However, I maintain that T'Pol did nothing more than show a good, ethical side to her people by showing displeasure at their lack of ethics and their treaty violation. I think the fact that she was scapegoated is terrible - and getting back the subject of the thread - should not have been used to blackmail her into marriage.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, I will read the episode and Shadow of P'Jem

Countires have to Sign the Geneva Accords to be bound by them. Germany, Japan, and the Soviet Union did not sign thenm. All three countries violated what you cited as rules. They did not feel they were bound to observe the accords. Churches were used as spotting towers, Armed men wre stationed in Churches. Japanes reguarly bombed and straffed Tent Hospitals clearly marked with a large Red Cross. they also killed medics by targeting the Red Cross painted on the Marine Medics Helmets. The Medics finally painted a Green Crooss on thier Helmets to go with comoglage covrering on thier helmts. Germans used Trains with a Red Cross painted on it to convey munitions. there were sworn and signed statements by ex Pows who had to unload these trains that they were carrying munitions. It was against Geneva Convention to appear behind Enemy Lines in an Enemy Uniform but in the Battle of the Bulge the Germans did it. A person caught like that could be shot out of hand and some were.

Archer at the end of the Episode intereferred. He ordered T'Pol to record on a PAAD the evidence Shran needed to justify his destruction of the Monestry then ordered T'Pol to give it to Shran. It was no business of Archers. what he may have thought was wrong the Vulcans did not.

Many are down on Trip for what he did in Cogenitor but Archer caused the Destruction of a 5,000 year old Monestary by interfereing in what was none of his business regardless if he felt it was morally wrong. He could not ascribe Human Moral code to the Vulcans. It has been cited that Trip was wrong for using human moral Code in Cogenitor. Archer interfered in a few other Episodes. As Rigel says: Crap never stuck to Archer.

ARcher crowing about what he did to the Clerics was out of line it was none of his business. He should not have provided that evidence to Shran he was interferring.

[pdsldl]

Perhaps Archer was not called on the carpet for assisting the Andorians because the Vulcans were caught red-handed violating a treaty and to pursue any action being taken against Archer meant airing their dirty laundry out in public. Anti Vulcan sentiments on Earth were already running high and advertising the Vulcans not honoring their treaties would not be helpful for any future strengthening of an alliance.

And by your reasoning SB Trip was wrong when he interfered when V'Las went after the Andorians during the Vulcan Forge Arc. Vulcans were our allies so Trip should have supported the Vulcans not the Andorians???? Where does it say that we have to stand back and allow our allies to do what we know is morally wrong? I realize our government most likely does the same but if they get caught they know there will be consequences and I have no problem when we as a country have to pay up. And using a monastery is just wrong on so many fronts. If the Vulcans weren't going to honor their most treasured heritage and places of solitude etc... why would they expect an alien race to?

[aadarshinah]

Perhaps it was interfering, but the fact of the matter is that, regardless of the dubious logic, the destruction of P'Jem was blamed on T'Pol, who, in the High Command's eyes, should have stopped Archer from 1) ever going to P'Jem, 2) finding the listening station that she didn't know was there to find, 3) handing over data on said listening station to the Andorians, which may have been in violation of a treaty that Vulcan and Andoria both signed according to the wording of the episode.

It may not be fair, but T'Pol became their scapegoat. I can hear the High Command now: "Don't look at us. Forget we weren't ever supposed to have a listening station in the first place. Blame T'Pol, because if she had just controlled the humans better, none of this ever would have happened." When she finally joined Starfleet and the High Command no longer had the authority to try and bring her home, they went after T'Les...

Which does beg the question once more, if the High Command was so anti-T'Pol, why on earth did Koss want to marry her? I forget already who suggested it was because Koss's parents were Syrranites, but a large part of me thinks that this isn't likely. After all, in "The Forge," it was made clear that Koss didn't know about the map to the Syrranite santuary in the IDIC when it probably would have been safer and less-potentially-likely-to-be-stolen for him, if he was a Syrranite, to guide them to the monestary himself. Granted, his parents could have been Syrranites and Koss himself not.... but, if two families belonging to a minority sect are going to arrange a marriage between their kids, I'd think at least one of those kids would be a member of that same sect. I'm partial to the idea myself that Koss was marrying her because it was tradition and to do anything otherwise would be more "rogue" than the act of marriage itself would be seen as by the High Command...

(and, in response to pdsldl, if the situations had been reversed, and it was Andoria with the listening post in one of their santuaries, I rather feel Archer would still have given the offended party (in this case, the Vulcans) the data on it... it was more a moral-choice than a I-hate-Vulcans choice)

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Looking back over the transcripts for "Breaking the Ice," it only ever says T'Pol was a kid when the marriage was arranged. Nothing about how old Koss was:

T'POL: We haven't spoken in many years. Marriages on Vulcan are arranged during childhood. I've only met Koss four times.

She doesn't actually say that she was a child when she was betrothed to Koss, only that Vulcans (generally) are betrothed when they're children. That gives enough wiggle-room for me to interpret that she and Koss weren't betrothed as kids.

T'LES: I don't know why you're surprised. This was planned years ago. There's more to life than one's profession. Perhaps you'll learn that one day. It seems that I'm not the only one who knew you were coming. You received this yesterday.

"Years ago" still doesn't mean 60-odd years ago. It might as well mean 3-7 years ago so so.

My theory, and again I'm digging up an old file from my computer, is this:

There is also nothing that explicitly says that she was betrothed to Koss when they were seven. In Breaking the Ice she just mentions that Vulcans generally are betrothed at that age. Since she's in her mid-sixties and still hasn't married Koss I gather that they were betrothed when she was an adult. It makes no sense for them to wait 60 years between betrothal as children and marriage, since Koss would've entered a lot of pon farrs before then.

So I suppose she was betrothed to someone else at age 7 but that her intended mate died before they could marry and that for some reason she wasn't betrothed to anyone else before Koss came along. It is also possible (but a bit unlikely since that should've been mentioned on the show) that she did marry - and perhaps even had children - before the time of ENT.

I don't think that Koss was nearing pon farr at the time of Breaking the Ice, or even in Home. So there is no discrepancy between not marrying Koss in BTI but still doing so a couple of years later in Home. Presumably Vulcan families would want to avoid marriages when the spouses-to-be are in heat (potentially messy as TOS Amok Time showed us). Better to marry between pon farrs so that the spouses can connect and get to know each other (as the "one year rule" states).

I do realize this is stretching things, but it is the only way to make some sense of the mess TPTB made. So this is my story and I'm sticking to it.

This was, in fact, one of the few early times when I thought Archer was in the right. He did a huge diplomatic favor for a race that Earth had just met and had no qualms with. This was an expression of diplomatic independence from the Vulcans, which was in the long run a good thing for Earth. Archer's friendship with Shran served Earth's interests more than once.

I strongly disagree with this. See why in my review of "The Andorian Incident (an episode I really liked anyway).

[honeybee]

I hardly think arguing that the Japanese, Germans and the Soviets behaved the way the Vulcans did speaks well for the morality of what the Vulcans did. And the Geneva Convention was created and signed after WWII in response to atrocities against civilians. Those civilians such as medical personnel, red cross workers, clergy and even journalists are expected to remain non combatants in order to retain their special status. During WWII, the allies bombed the city of Cologne to the ground but the specifically did not aim at the Cathedral not only because of its historic significance but because the priests there were giving sanctuary to civilians. They got word to the allies that no armed people would be allowed in and the allies respected their word. Do I think the Nazis would have done the same? No, but it is a moot point. The allies did the right thing, and if someone had started to shoot from the Cathedral - they would have destroyed it without a doubt.

Again, I have no proof that the Vulcan treaty with Andoria was anything like the Geneva convention, but I got the distinct impression it declared P'Jem safe because of its cultural and religious significance. The Andorians obviously knew it was being used for military purposes, but they did not simply destroy it. They waited until they had proof that, I would imagine, nullified the treaty in the same way a priest picking up a gun would nullify the Geneva protocol giving clergy special status. In Shadows of P'Jem the Vulcans argued that spying on the Andorians was necessary and that the Andorians did not always act above board either, but it is made clear that the listening station violated a treaty. The Andorians even went so far as to warn the monks to evacuate before destroying it.

I think T'Pol believed her people to be honest and that they would not violate a treaty. I would even be open to the argument that the Vulcans were justified, if there was any proof that the Andorians were some kind of imminent threat. It didn't seem so. It seemed more like a cold war of egos.

Moreover, you just don't use your sacred cultural places as military installations and cry boo hoo when the enemy destroys them anymore than you can cry war crimes if you used civilians as human shields (another thing outlawed in the Geneva Protocols). And you certainly don't use a low level diplomat as a scape goat because she doesn't object to the revelation of the truth, especially when she had no power to stop Archer from handing over the data. The only thing T'Pol did was express disappointment in her people.

And while I agree that Archer often got away with bad behavior and Trip got a raw deal in Cogenitor (the people who parade their enslaved and oppressed third gender around aliens who would object to said slavery bear some of the blame) - Archer wins over Shran in this incident, something that proves valuable to Earth. He also shows the Vulcans that humans are not their puppets or lapdogs, and I totally agree he would have done the same thing if the Andorians were in the wrong.

And yes, it's very curious that in the face T'Pol's disgrace, why Koss and his parents would even want anything to do with her. I like the Syrannite theory, though.

[pdsldl]

(and, in response to pdsldl, if the situations had been reversed, and it was Andoria with the listening post in one of their santuaries, I rather feel Archer would still have given the offended party (in this case, the Vulcans) the data on it... it was more a moral-choice than a I-hate-Vulcans choice)

I thought what Archer and T'Pol did was the correct thing to do. Never been one to blindly follow along with something just because I'm a American or whatever. Always think people should make the most moral choices they can according to their personal beliefs. I may disagree with what they do but I'll defend their right to do it as long as I believe they are honestly following their own personal code/beliefs and not some government or other authoritative body.

And SB there was a treaty because Soval had to ask Archer to go with him later on ( can't remember the episode) to renegotiate with the Andorians when the Andorians said they trusted Archer.

[aadarshinah]

And you certainly don't use a low level diplomat as a scape goat because she doesn't object to the revelation of the truth, especially when she had no power to stop Archer from handing over the data. The only thing T'Pol did was express disappointment in her people.

*holds up hands* Didn't say that I agreed with it, only that that's what the High Command did. It's rather inane from our viewpoint, but for all we know the High Command told their people that T'Pol was rather more responsible than she was, leading most people to, well, beleive that should could have stopped it.

Thought - > If Koss's father was so influential, maybe the High Command asked him to force the marriage issue. After all, by "Home" T'Pol was Starfleet and out from under the High Command's authority. If the marriage had gone as traditional marriages on Vulcan go, T'Pol would have been on Vulcan for a year - right where the High Command wanted her, given the fact that they seemed to want to bring her home every other episode for the first two seasons....

... But T'Pol was able to negotiate with his parents, so I guess that nullifies that theory... Le sigh....

(ps, pdsldl, I only said "in response" because, like now, I had finished writing my post by the time yours showed up, so it was an afterthought response, nothing more. I got your gist)

[honeybee]

Never got the impression you agreed with the High Command, aadarshinah! I think your posts have been pretty clear.

If the marriage had gone as traditional marriages on Vulcan go, T'Pol would have been on Vulcan for a year - right where the High Command wanted her, given the fact that they seemed to want to bring her home every other episode for the first two seasons....

I actually, agree that maybe (possibly) the marriage was designed to keep T'Pol in line. What better way to keep her in line than keep her barefoot, pregnant and home on Vulcan? Sure, they negotiated - but who knows when Koss's pon farr was going to come around. It might have been within another year - and then if she was pregnant - she probably would not have been allowed to stay on Enterprise, negotiations or not. So, I don't think the negotiations necessarily nullify your theory.

I'm pretty sure the Vulcan arc was conceived to "explain" all the d*ckish behavior we saw from Vulcans in the early seasons. Sure, we saw some nifty Vulcans like V'Lar and T'Pol was an ethical and idealistic Vulcan, despite her early snobbery. So, them just not wanting someone like T'Pol around until T'Pau took over makes sense.



Side note: In one of the most apropos and hilarious Freudian slips, I wrote in my earlier post "a priest picks up a guy" rather than "a gun". I corrected it before I hit submit though.

[Aquarius]

um...that line from T'Les, about everything being arranged years ago? I'm pretty sure that was in reference to her supposed retirement, not T'Pol's marriage.

[aadarshinah]

um...that line from T'Les, about everything being arranged years ago? I'm pretty sure that was in reference to her supposed retirement, not T'Pol's marriage.

Hmm. I always thought T'Les was talking about the wedding, even if T'Pol didn't know it at the time. T'Les did seem awfully young (for a Vulcan) to retire willingly...

[Silverbullet]

Just finished reading Andorian Incident and shadows of P;Jem

In Andorian Incident a Treaty is mentioned by the Elder but no explantaion as to what kind of treaty. Archer later again Mentions a Treaty but no mention of what Kind of Treaty. But we can surmise it might have covered Listening posts.

In shadows of P'Jem Forrest says to Archer that Starfeet it not happy with him over the Destruction of the Monestary. they say he may have stepped in to it. He should have stayed out of it. anyway in the episode T'Pol is blamed for the Destruction. No mention that Archer ordered her to turn over the evidence.Not even Archer said anything about ordering her to do that. Even T'Pol says she is being blamed for it, that is why she is being recalled to Vulcan.

A treaty of Tau Ceti is cited that the Andorians are breaking and Shran retorts that you should talk about breaking treaties.

Forest tells Archer that Soval blames him and says that Archer should not be in command of Enterprise.

Anyway, T'Pol is being blamed and Archer isn't saying anything to take the heat off her by admitting he ordered her to turn over the evidence. Again Archer is using human morality in a Alien Species dustup. T'Pol had warned Trip twice about that. once concerning the little girl in the Episode "Broken bow" and in Cogenitor.

Anyway, it is an Episode and that is that. end of conversation.