Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[justTripn]

I noticed the Vulcan Modesty thread got off topic into arranged marriages, which is an interesting topic, so . . . discuss!

I think arranged marriages where the partners have some input and agree to have friends or family arrange the marriage are not immoral and can in fact work. I came from a church where there are defacto arranged marriages. This happens because the denomination is so small and so conservative that the chances of randomly finding a partner with similar beliefs are vanishingly small. So maybe a paster hears, well there is a single person in this church and a single person in this church, both of whom want to marry so they are paired up! Obviously the pairing is voluntary, but it is an arranged marriage in the sense that the couple doesn't know each other well and is trusting the judgement of friends that this will be a good match.

I also know a Middle Eastern man in an arranged marriage that appears to be great. He lives in the U.S. and relied on relatives to match him with a woman from his birth country who he seems to have alot in common with.

I also worked in a refugee camp with Hmong people, who also have arranged marrriages. In this case, I am much less approving because the couples can get married very young, as children. Sometimes the pair picks each other but sometimes a woman/girl is forced into a marriage and it really is rape. But it is often a case of taking two people who really don't know each other very well and pairing them up even if it is voluntary.

Again, these marriages, however they started, are real marriages. You can tell when people love each other.

One of the functions of Star Trek is to have us imagine other possibilities and cultures, and the example of arranged marriage is a challenge to our preconceptions. Taking it back to Vulcans, the arranged marriages may be a cultural adaptation fitting their physiology--mate or die. As I alluded to in Brainstorm, where in the father-son sex talk, teenage Lorian asks Trip if he will help him find a mate, and Trip ducks the issue, hoping that matters will just take care of themselves.

[justTripn]

Also, when I was in a two-week training to work for Food for the Hungry, a Christian relief and development organization, to teach us about cross cultural sensivity and to make the point that other customs may just be different, not bad, they invited a Food for the Hungry worker from India to talk to us about her arranged marriage. She was newly married and she thought it was great! She was totally preferred that way of doing things and tried to explain to us why it was better. She said that she thought the arranged marriage was "more romantic" causing all the Americans to go Huh??!!! Then she elaborated saying that when an American couple gets married they already know each other, so where is the surprise, the mystery, the excitement? Whereas when she got married, the next few days and weeks and months were an exciting time of discovery, where they talked and talked *clears throat* and got to know each other.

[aadarshinah]

Arranged marriages can definitely work, I think, if the situation is right. Sometimes I think it would be easier too...

That being said, the way they do it on Vulcan seems to be the problem. I don't know what they're expecting, arranging marriages when the couple is very young and then letting them go their seperate ways for fifty or so years before they get married. It seems to be asking for trouble. People change a lot from when they're kids to when they're ready to be married. Even if the pair seemed ideal at the time the marriage was arranged, that isn't nessicarily the case when the marriage occurs.

But maybe T'Pol and Koss are an abberition as far as marriages go, and normally bethothed pairs see each other a handful of times before they marry on Vulcan, to get to know each other, or at least corrispond. Otherwise you just seem to have a whole bunch of unhappy people trying really hard to pretend they're not.

[Silverbullet]

T'Les said that she had met her Husband once, the day before thier marriage. She said it was a good marriage since they grew fond of one another.

I lived on the Indian Subcontinent for 7 years. There are arranged marriages. However, it depends on the people involved. JT met intelligent, educated people who were in arranged marriages.

In the first nation on the Sub-Continet I lived in (now Bangladesh) females were bought (illegal but still done) A man started paying on the female when she ws born and usually had paid the Bride Price by the time the female was 9. When the female had her first Menstral cycle the marriage was performed and she entered her Husbands home. First Mentrals often took place at age 10, 11, or 12. The female might have her first child at age 12 or 13. the feamle had absolutely no choice in the matter and her feelings were not considered since she was a female (this was a very conservative Muslim country)


In the back waters of India Buying a bride is still common and the females are young when the marriage takes place and they enter thier Husbands home. Happy? Doubtful. It is just the way things are done.

I have noted that Arranged marriages are usually if not always in a male dominated society. I do know that at times it is a benefit to a female who might not have a chance at marriage because she is crippled or infirm in some way but still she can bring a bride price from an older man.

I once atteneded a lecture given by a very attractive and intelligent woman who was a professor, journalist and taught in the U.S. She was Muslim and had an arranged Marriage. Her talk was very interesting. I had a number of questions to ask and couldn't remember one when the question period was announced except one: "does you Husband know how lucky he is?" She said she hoped so and I wanted to crawl under my seat for asking that question. I later talked to her and asked about the arranged Marriage. She said they were both educated, intelligent people, she wwas free to travel and teach as she wished. She didn't say anything else.

[honeybee]

But there's a huge difference between an arranged marriage and a forced marriage. It's pretty clear to me that in Amok Time, T'Pring didn't have a whole lot of options open to her and that she would become the property of whichever man won the challenge. While Vulcans certainly have different mores, I think its perfectly acceptable to lay criticism at their feet for putting people - especially women - in highly unpleasant situations with few choices open to them.

It's one thing to objectify another culture, it's quite another to say that that person is of a different race and culture, therefor they have no right to autonomy over their own body and mind. The arguments for slavery always cited the notion that "they" are "different" and therefor the rights and privileges "we" hold dear are not applicable.

I think there is mounds of evidence to suggest that arranged marriages can work for people, but they only work when each party wishes to enter that marriage. Among my middle class and higher caste Indian friends, it's been explained to me like a Match.com that your parents run. They pick out your choices, but you ultimately have the final say as to whether the marriage goes forward. But among the poorer classes, that's where you get the forced marriages and the dowry murders and the treating of women as property. Back at the turn of the century, the argument for letting bride-burnings (which didn't actually happen very often) go forward was - they're different - those women want to be burned. And it seems true in some cases that they did, but does that make it acceptable? Does that make it acceptable to turn away and shrug your shoulders as twelve year old girls are being sold to sell off family debt?

There are many, many women activists in Indian trying to stop dowry murders and the treatment of women as property. It's not racist or insensitive to side with those women.

[Aquarius]

Arranged marriages can definitely work, I think, if the situation is right. Sometimes I think it would be easier too...

That being said, the way they do it on Vulcan seems to be the problem. I don't know what they're expecting, arranging marriages when the couple is very young and then letting them go their seperate ways for fifty or so years before they get married. It seems to be asking for trouble. People change a lot from when they're kids to when they're ready to be married. Even if the pair seemed ideal at the time the marriage was arranged, that isn't nessicarily the case when the marriage occurs.

But maybe T'Pol and Koss are an abberition as far as marriages go, and normally bethothed pairs see each other a handful of times before they marry on Vulcan, to get to know each other, or at least corrispond. Otherwise you just seem to have a whole bunch of unhappy people trying really hard to pretend they're not.

Keep in mind, the methodology of their custom probably pre-dates warp travel, maybe space travel all tigether. Couples probably didn't separate after betrothal for as far or as long because they couldn't. So what you have here is custom and expectations not changing with the times or the demands of modern lifestyles.

[panyasan]

Vulcans also strike me as a race of individuals that like to be alone. They seems okay with being alone, making a career, making a life, before starting a family. If you life for more then 200 years, you have plenty of time being "single" before being married.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, unfortunately it is not only the poorer classes wher Brde burnings take place. Often it is in educated classes. Greed. Burn the present bride and get a better dowry from a new bride. Sometimes the family demand more dowry and when they are turned down burn the Female. Usual excuse is that the cooking Oil caught fire, set of her Sari and she was burned to death.

Sons have always been preferred in Asia. Because the son stays withthe family. Daughters go to their Husbands family and her services are used for them. That brings in the bride price. To make up fo rthe loss of the daughters services to the family. The Son assures the parents an old age because he lives with them and will take care of them when theycan no longer produce for themselves. A form of Social Security.

In some areas of backwater China nd Mongolia if a female had not fetched a Bride Price by the time she was in her teens she would be sold to a Slaver or a procurer. Not in the modern world but not that far in the past.

Females lot has never been good in Asia. Unless they were extremely powerful women who made their way on sheer intelligence and guts.

Bride buying, Dowrys, bride bruning are Part of the culture. Not common but still they exist.

Aside: Milton Caniff, a cartoonist, had a comic stip in the late 30's and early 40's titled "Terry and the Pirates." in it he had a great character named the "Dragon Lady" She led a gang of outlaws but whhen WWII happened she joined the fight against the Japanese. She was tough, beautiful, exotic, as as T'Pol, hard to read. Her name became known and applied to that type of real life female.

[justTripn]

Since I liked Silverbullet's Cogenitor story, I obviously take the position that the different custom of another place really can be wrong or even evil. Like slavery. So it probably goes without saying all of us here are opposed to girls of 14 being married off to older men against their will. But how about Princess Diana and Prince Charles? That was an arranged marriage. They were deamed suitable for each other and they didn't know each other very well. Right up until they were married Diana was calling Charles "Sir." Now we get into the shades of grey. There was some element of coercion in that situation because when Diana had second thoughts (because the prince was ignoring her) she was pressured to continue because of all the expensive hoopla surrounding the royal wedding. Just like there was an element of coercion in the T'Pol/Koss thing, even though they were both adults.

Asso said in another thread, that Sex without love is adultery.

Frankly I think the true adultery is when you have sex with someone whom you don't love, both by your own volition (that happens, even on Vulcan, it seems, and is very bad, and sad) and by a forced constriction (T'Pring's case).

I think that is incorrect and the arranged marriage custom is a counterexample.

[justTripn]

That is the person at the beginning of the arranged marriage may not be head over heals in love. But that doesn't make sex wrong.

[honeybee]

In the case of T'Pring and Spock, you had a couple who had totally different needs and expectations. Spock wanted to travel and be independent, returning to T'Pring only every seven years out of biological necessity. There was no implication he wanted to take T'Pring with him or was even interested in developing affection for her. Meanwhile, she had found a more appropriate mate, one who had affection for her and wanted to be with her.

The argument for arranged marriages, aside from dynastic considerations, is that you will get two people with the same cultural expectations and therefor are a likely better match. But that certainly wasn't the case with T'Pring and Spock. They were literally light years apart. I'm not arguing that Vulcan marriage customs should be thrown out wholesale, just that there should be an out available to a woman that doesn't involve a fight to the death. Clearly, from Koss we learn that divorce is possible - and in fact easy - but that wasn't addressed in Amok Time. Perhaps Spock was too far gone into the pon farr to see the logic of letting her go - but I do like the notion that if he had been in his right mind, he would have released her. Spock was ethical and logical above all - and I seriously doubt he would have forced an unwilling woman into a marriage/sex. But the biological necessity got in the way. T'Pring, however, didn't know Spock and perhaps could not trust that he would release her if she asked - so she went down the cold, cruel logical path we saw.

Vulcans also strike me as a race of individuals that like to be alone. They seems okay with being alone, making a career, making a life, before starting a family. If you life for more then 200 years, you have plenty of time being "single" before being married.

I think T'Pring was clearly rebelling against expectations - for wanting a mate who had affection for her above all. But, we do see more domestic, affection-minded Vulcans in the form of Sarek/Amanda (yes, she's human) and Tuvok and his wife. T'Pol was also rebelling, of course, by developing affection for a human.


I think Aquarius is right. If Vulcans have a flaw, it's their rigid adherence to tradition/rules. While they are seen being flexible at times, they don't seem as adaptable as humans. That seems like something they learn from humans.


JT, I didn't mean to imply that your defending of arranged marriages was a defense of forced marriage. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't lumping the two together in my mind. I do think sometimes discussions of other cultures become so abstract and we (me included) so want to be open to different ideas, that we forget that other cultures can be oppressive (as Western culture has been). I like your metaphor of Charles and Diana - they both had seconds thoughts, from what I understand. That was a highly unusual situation, though. And it, of course, did not work out.

But T'Pol's situation was worse. She was recovering from the Trellium addiction, in love (probably scared of the implications of that) and was subjected to blackmail. I don't think either Koss or T'Les thought they were doing the wrong thing - but neither of them was willing to see beyond their own viewpoint/cultural bias to see what was best for T'Pol. By the time T'Les started to see the truth - it was too late.

[Silverbullet]

Diana was in a word, a Brood Mare. She had the right blood lines to bear a person who would someday sit on the throne of Great Britain. Think that at first Diana went along with it but after she found out what a Fishbowl Royal life could be. The fact that she was consort more than a wife. Expected to do official functions even if she didn't want to. Leave her children togo off around the World on Royal tours and finally ackowledging that Charles had another female he preferred (Married after dian's death) think somewhere she threw in the towel and started to take Lovers (who knows for sure) Not a happy life.

[panyasan]

I think the key word is "force". If you're in an arranged marriage, that is mostly because your parents picked a partner for you that is problably from the same background, religion etc. If they do it right, they look at the bride and the groom and look if they would fit together in marriage. I did this when I was single. I have been hopeless in love with some one, but it wouldn't have worked out. When I met my husband I liked him, not totally over my head, but there were so many factors that clicked, that made me aware that we could make it work - and we are miles apart. So arranged marriage can work, but the couple have to agree as well. If one or both parties feel forced, I don't think it's going be a good marriage.

As for adultery - it's the act of breaking your commitment/marriage vows. I wonder if how the arrangement of the parents is seen in Vulcan society. We have seen with T'Pol that an arrangement can be broken. So I think it not seen as marriage vows or marriage commitment, but as agreement/deal with other clans, a planning of the child future. Important, but not wriitten in stone and not yet a marriage.

EDIT: so many responses already - I was responding to Jt's one.

[aadarshinah]

I don't think either Koss or T'Les thought they were doing the wrong thing - but neither of them was willing to see beyond their own viewpoint/cultural bias to see what was best for T'Pol.

It is quite simple from their point of veiw: the purpose of marriage on Vulcan is not for love, or shared income, or whatever other reasons humans marry for, but for children. Any pairing a Vulcan might have with someone outside the species would not continue on the speices. Oh, any children a pairing like Trip and T'Pol's might have would be half-vulcan, but that would not do much good for the rest of the speices. Any relationship not formed for the purpose of having children would be illogical to a Vulcan mind.

[Silverbullet]

Double post. T'Pring said that she "didn;t want to be married to a legend and that Spock was a legend on Vulcan" She wanted and preferred an ordinary vulcan male. Spock was entirley different he was famous even llegendary. T'Pring did not want that. she did say she would settle for his Property and the other guy.

I still wonder that if Spock was deep in Pon Farr how is it he returned to Enterprise after handing over T'Pring and not settling his Pon Farr. No affect on him at all. Where does that leave Pon Farr? Is it really necessary? Can a male skip it then?

T'Les and Koss seemed to be working together to coerce T'Pol in to the marriage. T'Les obviousy knew she was going off to search for SurakKatra and would not be takking her old position back. Her motive sems to be having T'Pol marry a nice Vulcan boy and settle down to being a dutiful Vulacn wife. What the motive of Koss was I am not sure other than he wanted T'Pol.