Vulcan Modesty

[Silverbullet]

Reading Alelou's new missing scene of the Xindi I remembered the Episode. T'Pol takes off her Pajama top and cups her hands over her Breasts. (to stimulate the pimply faced 14 year olds) However, I got to thinking of that. what would be Vulcan attitude towards Nudity and modesty?

Given that Males experience Pon Farr every seven years it would seem that a Nude Vulcan Female would not stimulate them very much if at all. So, would the Vulcan female be embarassed to bare her Breasts in front of a human? Would she be embarassed to bare her Breasts at all. Or ven be totaly Nude. I always believed that the Sex drive of the Vulcan Male was so low he had to b uild up to Sexual activity over seven years before he could do it. So, as I say he wouldn't be aroused by a naked Vulcan Female. Vulcan attitude toward Nudity would be diferent than humans.

[Enerdhil]

Well, I always felt that scene as if T'Pol was performing to Trip (in order to having him to accept the neuropressure), so she would act mainly as a Human female would do in the same scenario. That might explain using her hands to hide the breast (even if he is behind her, without direct vision -but, allas, there is always the question of rating the episode for TV screening). I personally feel that in the Vulcan logic thought, being naked in front of others, particularly colleagues, should be more common than for humans.

[aadarshinah]

I rather agree. T'Pol was assigned to the embassy on earth before Enterprise and a large part of diplomacy is respecting other cultures. Most likely the idea for Vulcans with any other speices is "don't make them uncomfortable," which, in one way or another, nudity tends to do. Or it could be something as simple as human ships have to be cold for Vulcans, and most people (presumably Vulcans too) put their arms around them when they're cold... Or perhaps she thought the neuropressure might be less likely to be construed as a "sexual overture" if she didn't behave in any way that humans might consider sexual in nature...

good question though. Never thought of it that way before.

[panyasan]

I always felt that Vulcan would consider nudity as the natural shape of a body. On the other hand the way they dressed never showed much skin. Modesty comes in differences: in some cultures the public area is much more important, but they speak freely about sex, while in other cultures nudity or certain clothing isn't commented on, but questions about sex as seen a very private - so don't ask, because it's rude.
I don't think T'Pol has much trouble with nudity, but she is modest on the other hand. Also, she knows Humans males may have problems with the nude, which problably influenced her acting with Trip.

[Silverbullet]

In the series, T'Pol was running around in her skivvies in bounty because she was under the "influence" In ANIS it was an Archer dream where she took off her shirt. Not what she might or might not do in R/L. In Harbinger she wanted Trip to jump her bones so she kisses him passionately, drops her Robe to show him the goods and the Kisses him Passionately again. Not what one would consider natural behavior. Only in the Xindi is there a chance for T'Pol to act naturally. While it is true Vulcans wear these Robes in Public and clothing in Private it does not mean that Nudity is frowned upon in Vulcan culture under the rigth circumstances. Or that a male and femal could not be Nude on a beach (If theyhad one) this had not, to my knowledge, been addressed in the series.

The way Vulcans are depicted they are one screwed up bunch. Only having Sex once every seven years but won't talk about it.

[aadarshinah]

The way Vulcans are depicted they are one screwed up bunch. Only having Sex once every seven years but won't talk about it.

Every species, in all likelihood, has its own nerosies regarding sex. Humans have sex all the time, so we talk/write/fantasize/etc about it it constantly. Vulcans have it considerably less so, so it's only natural they talk about it less often. Rather stupid that they don't seem to ever talk about it at all, but, then again, it's never been depicted in the ST universe in the "normal" Vulcan setting. We've seen a couple of unsual examples with Spock (whose half-human), T'Pol (take your pick of reasons), and a Vulcan whose name I can't remember in VOY (who couldn't reach his mate because she was halfway across the galaxy), but never the usual way of it. Maybe they're slightly less tight lipped about it when there aren't humans around...

[Silverbullet]

That episode in voyager was a bit like Bounty in Enterprise: Torres is set off by being touched by the Vulcan guy who was entering his Pon Farr and she for some reason respponded to it. She and Paris are trapped in a cave of some such. She has the hots for Paris and wants to have him take care of her cravings. In the end she fights the Vulcan, defeats him and the blood Fever is gone. In bounty t'Pol gallops around in her underwear, is stunned by Malcom and allowed to sleep it off in Sickbay. In both episodes the female is set off by some outside source and wants to get laid right away. Torres by Paris and T'Pol by anyone. In both neither of them get their ashes hauled.

In bounty t'Pol gives Trip a pretty charged look and in the voyager episode Torres lays it out on the line that she wouldn't fight off Paris. I always wished in voyager that Torres and Paris had got stuck in that cave and he had to do the dirty with her. Also kind wished that T'Pol had trapped Trip somewhere so he had to do the dirty with her. In the voyager series it was only about three episodes later that Torres and Paris do get together in the episode "Day of Honor." Alas, took longer for Trip and T'Pol and T'Pol shot that down the next morning.

[Transwarp]

The way Vulcans are depicted they are one screwed up bunch. Only having Sex once every seven years but won't talk about it.

Vulcans don't only have sex every seven years. They MUST have it every seven years, but CAN have it anytime else (and DO, as established by couples with kids with ages less than seven years apart.)

While it is true Vulcans wear these Robes in Public and clothing in Private it does not mean that Nudity is frowned upon in Vulcan culture under the right circumstances.

I don't believe Vulcans are overly-modest, I think they are overly-dignified. Their seeming prudishness stems from an aversion to acting in a manner that would seem improper or undignified. It would seem to me that much of their sense of propriety is a hold-over from pre-Awakening times (when the sight of a bare-nekked Vulcan woman was more likely to have an arousing affect on the local Vulcan warriors). There may be no LOGICAL reason to continue those customs in modern Vulcan society, but customs and traditions die hard.

[Silverbullet]

I have always viewed Pon Farr as a male condition. Every seven years for amale. However, a female would need to be availlable at all times because she would not know when the male she marries is going to have his next Pon Farr, it could be the next day, a few years, or even seven years so she would have to be ready. Also always felt that for females they were merely responding to the amle summons of a male to come to him to help him through the Pon Farr. No male Mate, no summons, no Pon Farr for the female. That would seem more logical and explaing why T'Pol could Seduce Trip in Harbinger. She being available for sex at any time. Also always believe that the male Vulcan has a exremely low Sex drive so he need seven years to get his stuff together (crap Hot) so he can get it up and do the dirty.

Never having seen every episode of all of the series or all of the Movies I have no idea if there was any mention of vulcans with children less than seven years apart.

SB

[pdsldl]

Kov told Trip they were working to make the seven year time frame shorter I assumed that meant that the males at least had a lower sex drive outside of Pon Farr and some of their males wished to experience what must be somewhat of an enjoyable that they want to experience more often. And I believe Tuvok had children that were less than seven years apart in age. But then they may have some means (in vitro etc...) to have children closer together.

[panyasan]

Tuvok is a good example of a "normal Vulcan in a good marriage". I always thought because he had his childern not 7 years apart, sex (and childern) outside pon farr was possible. I always want to add that showing nudity not necessary has a sexual message. I remember someone who thought that everyone taking a Japanese bath (that's a public bath with group of people, mostly seperated by sex. You have womens and men baths) was immoral, because he/she was getting naked. There isn't anything sexual about taking a Japanese bath - and if you would act in a sexual manner while you are in Japanese bath, you would be arrested (and shock everybody present).
For me, T'Pol struggles a lot with the differences between the Human culture around her and her own Vulcan upbringing, also when it comes to nudity/modesty/sexuality. The missing scene of Alelou of the episode Xindi shows this very well (just up) and gives a good insight in T'Pols thinking.

[Transwarp]

And I believe Tuvok had children that were less than seven years apart in age.

Exactly. I see absolutely nothing preventing Vulcans from having sex between pon farrs.

But then they may have some means (in vitro etc...) to have children closer together.

Why complicate things unnecessarily? If a Vulcan couple wants a kid, they can just do it the old fashioned way.

Sorry, I see no evidence that suggests Vulcans can only procreate during pon farr.

As for male-only pon farr, you can certainly make a case for it but in my universe, female Vulcans also experience pon farr. Canon supports either approach.

[Enerdhil]

Let's put this way (as I imagine): the 7-year pon farr period is a biological clock set time for sex. But this does not avoid having sex in between.

There could be some doubts about the male behaviour due to the spreading of "miths" based on the 7-year (Spok in Amok Time, Kov to Trip, ...) but this might be regarded as a curtain for foreigners, as Vulcans don't like (or assume it is too personal) do talk about.

The same can occur for females (as it occurs for humans). And I believe that in a logic driven society, non partners intercourse would be more common, even if not spoken out. What would happen to a Vulcan who enters pon farr while in a mission too far from her/his partner? There is a risk (nor certainty) of death based on the blood fever description. So, it appears logic to me that the society would not like to lose a valuable member and another friend/colleague/... would have sex with him/her. Meditation and fight might not be enough for some persons.

[aadarshinah]

And I believe that in a logic driven society, non partners intercourse would be more common, even if not spoken out. What would happen to a Vulcan who enters pon farr while in a mission too far from her/his partner? There is a risk (nor certainty) of death based on the blood fever description. So, it appears logic to me that the society would not like to lose a valuable member and another friend/colleague/... would have sex with him/her. Meditation and fight might not be enough for some persons.

Very true. Though there's probably a certain stigma about this and a Vulcan who, knowing his/her time was coming, refused or delayed unnessicarily in making the arrangements to meet his/her spouse in time would be frowned upon.

[Silverbullet]

In my copy of the Star Trek encyclopedia it states that Vulcans have sex every seven years as a consequence of their rigid control. If they can have sex anytime they want why the Pon Farr in the first place? That doesn't seem "Logical" If they are driven to Pon Farr because of thier rigid control prevents them from engaging in sex but you say they can have sex any timethey want that is contradictory. Sex any time no need for Pon Farr. Pon Farr means no sex anytime just every seven years.

I still think that the females do not experience Pon Farr but only respond to the male summons through their marriage bond to come to him/Her. In amok time Spock says he has to go back to Vulcan, he has no choice. He is going to enter Pon Farr and he is going to marry when he gets bck to Vulcan. What I could never undersand in that episode was that Spock gave his intended bride to a male she wanted and who wanted her. Then he boarded Enterprise again. NO effect from not going through Pon Farr. The female he was going to marry would have helped him through Pon Farr but was not experiencing it herself. She seems to be able to have Sex anytime. I think in one episode Spock tells Nurse Chappel that he can only do the dirty every seven years.

Over time this Pon Farr issue hs been so muddled up by different writers for different situations.

Back to my question. What about Vulcan Modesty. In the Episode Xindi T'Pol takes off her shirt but covers her breasts withher hands. In some take out of that scene Trip has his hands under her shirt on her bare back and he is apparently using the Neuro pressure techiques she is telling him to use. Apparently she did not have to take off her shirt. I know that T'Pol (Jolene) had her Breasts covered with her hands for TV because the Enterprise ws shown tduring prime time and no bare Breasts allowed then. Were the writers trying to give the impression that T'Pol knew what she ws doing that it would stimulate Trip Sexually? She is shown buttoning up her Pajama top sitting in front of Trip she must have had to turn around with her Breasts Bare to pick up her Pajama ttop and put it on before buttoning it. Trip must have got a good look. The writers might be suggesting that Vulcans are a bit more casual about Nudity than Humans and not realize its Sexual potential.