Vulcan Modesty

[pdsldl]

pdsldl Bottom line the Vulcan Reproductive Gland does control all of the parts of Vulcan sexuality. Now that would include bonding and monogomy because when Pon Farr hits a Vulcan is driven to find his or her bonded mate, whether they are married or betrothed. Case in point, Spock wanted T'Pring all the way up to "killing" Kirk only after his Plak Tau was broken could he reject her. Now T'Pring willingly had a complete bond with Stonn for a long time behind Spock's back, and its possible that because Spock is half human the bond wasn't strong enough to hook her. Either way he was still monogomous.

Granted a Vulcan in Pon Farr who cannot reach their mate will eventually have to mate with somebody else but in cases where a completed bond is an issue (like Tuvok) they will try to wait until they are past the point of no return. Even if its using a holo of their own mate.

Vorik was an exception for 2 reasons... A. He was only engaged, and logically concluded that his Fiancee had made other arrangements. B. He mind-linked with Torres, she was his only option after that. Until she beat the crap out of him of course...

These things must have a physical cause, because there are things at work that have nothing to do with cultural mories. Hence why its reasonable to conclude that the Vulcan Reproductive Gland plays the roll in controling all of it. Nothing would make any sense if it didn't.

WG this may all be true but it is your supposition of what you've seen not fact as explained in canon. You are free to interpret these events and draw conclusions but that doesn't mean it's true and should be presented as if they are facts. That T'Pring had a thing with Stonn outside of her betrothal to Spock is established but there is nothing to say she was bonded to him. That the gland controls Pon Farr and making offspring I can buy and even that it has something to do with the bond but Trip doesn't have this gland and he felt the affects of his bond to T'Pol so there has to be more to it. And Spock being monogamous may have to do with males not being interested in sex until pon farr or he may have just repressed any sexual desires he may have had like any good Vulcan was expected too.

In Vorik's case he had no options as his betrothed was not available so it didn't matter. He had to find an alternative and he was attracted to Torres. Spock did the same thing and sought out that nurse during Amok Time because it looked like he wasn't going to make it back to Vulcan.

[WarpGirl]

How would it make sense if monogomy, and bonding were not part of Pon Farr? I'm very curious to know. I was looking at this from the physical perspective, I never said Trip would be affected the same way. More than likely he would just go off of what T'Pol's physiology would need, being that her mind is stronger and would probably control the bond the most. There are many other instances in canon where they make it clear all Vulcans are biologically inclined to monogomy. Even in Amok Time there was a shot where Stonn looked eager to fight Spock. That was instinct a physical reaction. If T'Pring had not bonded with Stonn, Spock's pon farr would have affected her physically. Tuvok explained this in Blood Fever, she would still have the option of calling kali'fee, but she would have had symptoms as well. Just like B'Elanna. T'Pring was as cold as an Andorian glacier. According to canon she couldn't have been bonded to Spock, anymore than T'Pol could bond to Koss. I appologize if you think I haven't given enough canon evidence. There are a lot of episodes that give basics, but sometimes you have to put the puzzle pieces together.

[pdsldl]

You are free to put the puzzle pieces together as you understand them but we all the same freedom and my completed puzzle may look totally different than yours. And neither of us can state that what we perceive is fact because it's only what we understand from piecing small bits together with our own limited understanding. That's part of what fanfic is all about -- looking at the unexplained and working out different scenarios that may fit.

T'Pol may have been able to bond with Koss and chose not to. because of her feelings for Trip. Or she may have decided like Trip suggested that she do what she wanted and not what was expected as much as possible and still spare her mother. I assumed that was a possibility and that's why she abandoned him and went to Mt. Seleya to ensure that didn't happen at least until she was required to fulfill her duties during his Pon Farr. Then again she may also have been bonded already to Trip but since no pon farr was involved we really don't know.

As far as Trip my point was that the Vulcan gland did not exist in Trip's brain and he was affected by the bond so it cannot be the only thing controlling the bond. Vulcans telepathy was centered in their mid-brain and that seemed to be a big part of the bond and whatever telepathic connection existed between her and Trip. That T'Pol physiology affected him because of the bond we know but the bond was not just about reproduction.

T'Pring was a bit..no doubt about it and she stated she would be unfaithful, once he left, even if she were forced to marry Spock. It's doubtful that she would have even bothered with that statement if she were already bonded as she most likely would not have been acceptable to assist him with his Pon Farr and Spock would have discovered that
during the ceremony. With her attitude why wouldn't she have just said what was up and been done with it? If that can happen why bother with the fighting unless it was designed to kill off the bondmate so Spock could claim her. That would make the whole fight to the death thing more barbaric than it already is.

[Kotik]

Just like B'Elanna. T'Pring was as cold as an Andorian glacier.

[Shameless Plug]
Speaking of it, wanna join us in the "Challenge Idea" thread? We's gonna write a story about the Slopes Of Andoria
[/Shameless Plug]

[WarpGirl]

You are free to put the puzzle pieces together as you understand them but we all the same freedom and my completed puzzle may look totally different than yours. And neither of us can state that what we perceive is fact because it's only what we understand from piecing small bits together with our own limited understanding. That's part of what fanfic is all about -- looking at the unexplained and working out different scenarios that may fit.

T'Pol may have been able to bond with Koss and chose not to. because of her feelings for Trip. Or she may have decided like Trip suggested that she do what she wanted and not what was expected as much as possible and still spare her mother. I assumed that was a possibility and that's why she abandoned him and went to Mt. Seleya to ensure that didn't happen at least until she was required to fulfill her duties during his Pon Farr. Then again she may also have been bonded already to Trip but since no pon farr was involved we really don't know.

As far as Trip my point was that the Vulcan gland did not exist in Trip's brain and he was affected by the bond so it cannot be the only thing controlling the bond. Vulcans telepathy was centered in their mid-brain and that seemed to be a big part of the bond and whatever telepathic connection existed between her and Trip. That T'Pol physiology affected him because of the bond we know but the bond was not just about reproduction.

T'Pring was a bit..no doubt about it and she stated she would be unfaithful, once he left, even if she were forced to marry Spock. It's doubtful that she would have even bothered with that statement if she were already bonded as she most likely would not have been acceptable to assist him with his Pon Farr and Spock would have discovered that
during the ceremony. With her attitude why wouldn't she have just said what was up and been done with it? If that can happen why bother with the fighting unless it was designed to kill off the bondmate so Spock could claim her. That would make the whole fight to the death thing more barbaric than it already is.

OK 1. I never said that the two pictures had to be the same. Only that the Vulcan gland controled sexuality. That's canon. Tuvok said in Blood Fever that a Vulcan man in Pon Farr (which is controled by the gland) that had a mental link to his mate would trigger the same symptoms in the female, whether she was willing to mate with him or not. Hence the whole challenge and getting beat up. Again that's canon.

Its reasonable that the gland has something to do with bonding.

Telepathy might trigger a homornal reaction in the gland to form a bond, (speculation) but I highly doubt telepathic contact is the only trigger. Otherwise nobody would mind-meld.

2. T'Pol practically knew nothing about bonding when she was telling Trip about it. How do you think she could have chosen not to bond with Koss? Do you have any canon evidence that says she could have?

3. Frankly what Trip does or does not have is irrelevant. All that matters is T'Pol's physiology created the bond. Not Trip's.

4. T'Pring was a whore, but she was not stupid the way she went about jilting Spock ensured that her family's honor would be intact. There's no shame in calling a Kali'fee or even preferring another manfor your champion but refusing to go through the proper rituals is a disgrace. That said she was never regarded as entirely respectable after Spock rejected her. And Stonn didn't win any popularity contests either. Kali'fee is barbaric humans aren't supposed to like it. However it is honorable in Vulcan Culture. Sorry I didn't make it up.

Kotik you don't want me anyware near that Challenge. That and I am way too busy.

[Asso]

Well, about Canon.
I must say that Tolkien thought a very more intelligent Canon for his Saga.

[honeybee]

I'm going to have to disagree that T'Pring was a whore. She was shrewd, manipulative and cold - but a whore? Really? All she did was fall in love with someone other than her betrothed, just like T'Pol did. T'Pol handled her situation in a less manipulative manner to be sure and she certainly didn't want Koss dead - but I don't see where T'Pring sexual behavior was much different than T'Pol's.

[Aquarius]

I'm going to have to disagree that T'Pring was a whore. She was shrewd, manipulative and cold - but a whore? Really? All she did was fall in love with someone other than her betrothed, just like T'Pol did. T'Pol handled her situation in a less manipulative manner to be sure and she certainly didn't want Koss dead - but I don't see where T'Pring sexual behavior was much different than T'Pol's.

Agreed. Completely.

[Asso]

Love is love, isn't it?
Canon or not Canon.

[WarpGirl]

Being willing to have sex with a man who is not your husband (which is what T'Pring was willing to do) is whorish behavior, and it goes for men too! Did T'Pol offer to have a sexual relationship when married to Koss with anyone? Do most people here think she would? If so bring solid evidence. I never saw any indication she was willing to do that outside of fanfic. So yeah T'Pring's a whore.

[Aquarius]

That you don't believe it doesn't make it categorically impossible.

[WarpGirl]

I edited read the edit.

[Kotik]

Being willing to have sex with a man who is not your husband (which is what T'Pring was willing to do) is whorish behavior, and it goes for men too! I don't believe for a minute T'Pol would have had a sexual relationship when married to Koss with anyone, even if Trip had been willing. So yeah T'Pring's a whore.

Second that. Cheating on a husband/wife is as low as you can stoop. Trip never touched T'Pol after she was married to Kos and she made no move, too. However, keep in mind that T'Pring was not (yet) married to Spock, so she did not engage in extramaritial intercourse as she wasn't yet married. T'Pol jumped Trip's bones while her own betrothal was in a bit of a grey zone. However, I would never call her the w-word.

[honeybee]

T'Pring wasn't any more married to Spock than T'Pol was to Koss - they were bonded at childhood. It's been a long time since I've seen the episode, but falling in love with someone outside an arranged engagement hardly constitutes whorish behavior. T'Pring's entire manipulation was so she could have the man she loved. She does imply that she would have satisfied Spock's pon farr if he had won the challenge but would have returned to Stonn - but that's a hypothetical. And furthermore, Spock would essentially have had to force himself on her if he had won the challenge - not a pretty scenario.

Forcible rape (even under Pon farr) hardly constitutes a marriage in my mind. T'Pring was willing to sacrifice Spock's (or Kirk's) life for her own happiness - and she should be held accountable. But maligning her for choosing who she loves is not cool.

[pdsldl]

I agree T'Pring was a cold one but not whorish. Not sure about what would have happened if they had followed through on the marriage as some type of bond must still have existed as Spock said it was calling him home to his intended mate. Something was beckoning him.