Interesting Thot's idea

[Asso]

Thot made a comment on Consequences - Chapter 2 by Hoshissis that I have found so clever and interesting that I wanted to open a thread about that.

I had said: If I am not mistaken, there's a phrase, in the abomination, that T'Pol says, something like - Commander Tucker is always in agreement with the Captain.

Thot replied: Well, I have to say, that I still don't believe that the words spoken by the holographic images of the NX-Enterprise crew are 1:1 recordings, since these would mean, that there were microfones everywhere on the ship (in their quarters for example) => Starfleet as Big Brother.
So personally, I take every single word from the hiolodeck inside the reality of *the_abomination* as invented by a writer, because something else doesn't make sense.

Thot is VERY right, in my head. What he said is able to explain PERFECTLY that all we have seen in the abomination is totally invented.

What do you think of Thot's idea?
I am curious.

[Silverbullet]

Asso, poorly invented too.

[Transwarp]

Well of COURSE it's all invented! It was obvious to me when I first saw the episode. There is no way that Starfleet had a record of all the little scenes where Riker was sitting and observing. Private moments in the galley. In the passageways. On the shuttlepod. On the planet where they rescued Shran's daughter. That it was a holographic fiction created by someone after the fact is the only possible explanation. It is also the basis of my 'World's Shortest Finale Fix', posted in a couple of other forums.

Thot is absolutely right.

[Alelou]

That idea is what inspired one of my first ENT fanfics, and the only one that's never been posted at this site. (It's set in the TNG universe, so it's not classic TnT.)

Some Gaps in the Historical Record

[Thot]

Riker and Troi always say in *the_abomination*, that it is a "historical holoprogramme" and not a "documental holoprogramme". In the end you can look at it like a historical novel today, where the general line is about right, but the details of the events can quite deviate from the actual historical facts, to make it more suitable for the told story.

You have to consider, that this programme is intended to give insights to Starfleet officiers, who are in need to make a decision about loyalty, chain of command and morality. Therefore, it is quite understandable, that Trip is used by the writers to function as THE ROLEMODEL for Starfleet officiers, who are in such a dilemma. We know that such a assessment isn't based on nothing in Trip's case, but at the same time it goes along with a shooting over the mark: Trip becomes idolized in this aspect and it can get out of proportion.
Just remember what Riker says to Troi in another scene: "Those people [=the crew of Enterprise] are larger than life." If this isn't idolizing then nothing is.

The statement "Commander Tucker is always in agreement with the Captain" is something, which should underline the basic message of the programme: Look people. There is no one more loyal in Starfleet's history than Trip Tucker to Jonathan Archer, but in the end Trip knows, when it is time to defy a direct order to make the right decision.

Problem is that the way they characterized him in the end was so exagerated, that you start to wonder, if Trip Tucker is either not simply concerned with the safety of his ship, but obsessed and in need of an exorcist (since coming up only with blowing oneself up could be easily considered as a sign of mental instability) or he has lost any common sense during the attack of the pirates, since he could have handled the pirates just the same way he did it with the Ferengis in 'Acquisition': Walk on until you lead them into a trap.

That's the real shame of the idea: Overshooting the mark so much, that it becomes plain ridiculous.

So in the end you have three aspects, which you can use to make the real events deviate from the things you see in the holoprogramme:
1) The writers of the programme made changes to make it more fitting for their purpose.
2) The events have been concealed from the public right from the start for whatever reasons.
3) In more than 200 years many historical informations can be lost and this version in the holodeck can be a reconstruction with some gaps, which have been filled by some historians.

I can also easily fathom, that some facts have been deliberately kept silent in most history books or the people involved didn't disclose them, since they were very private acts or they didn't fit into the idolized image, which was bestowed on them.
For example, I always had the idea of Archer showing up a few hours after Trip's death at Shran's cabin and he starts to beat the shit out of him for being so careless, for telling them that the criminals couldn't follow them etc.
Quite a reaction of Archer, which could fit and at the same time wouldn't be mentioned in the history books, since it wouldn't fit to a clean image of the "founder of the Federation"

BTW: I intend to use this idea with Shran and Archer in my final fix, combined with a nice twist in it. But if somebody else wants it...

[Transwarp]

For example, I always had the idea of Archer showing up a few hours after Trip's death at Shran's cabin and he starts to beat the shit out of him for being so careless, for telling them that the criminals couldn't follow them etc.
Quite a reaction of Archer, which could fit and at the same time wouldn't be mentioned in the history books, since it wouldn't fit to a clean image of the "founder of the Federation"

That action would only fit if Trip died in the episode. Since he didn't die, it wouldn't happen. And Shran would never have behaved in such a dishonorable way, either. There is very little about that episode that is redeemable.

[justTripn]

That idea is what inspired one of my first ENT fanfics, and the only one that's never been posted at this site. (It's set in the TNG universe, so it's not classic TnT.)

Some Gaps in the Historical Record

That's adorable! Very nice job. I'm sure we could find a way to fit that into some category at Triaxian Silk!!!!!

I like that Commander Riker is a little appalled at the morally questionable decision to present a romantic relationship as historical without definative evidence. I also like that he isn't appalled enouph to do anything about it, except get him and Troi out of the way of the holonovelist. CUTE! He's more concerned with enjoying his life, which seems perfectly in character.

I also wrote finale fix with the same premise--that the holoprogram was a best-guess historical reconstruction (many people did). But I wrote it soon after coming across a specifc case of a romantic relationship presented as historical fact rather than conjecture in a biography of Alexander Hamilton. And being less cool and collected than Commander Riker, I left an outraged book review on Amazon.com. Alexander Hamilton had a very close relationship with his sister-in-law, they exchanged many letters. But his wife at least knew of the friendship and approved. In fact his wife collected and archived all Hamilton's writing after his death, including the letters to her own sister. Of course Hamilton died early. His widow lived nearly to 100 and worked tirelessly to maintain his memory and public reputation. So IF he had an affair with his sister in law, he successfully hid it from his closest companions during his own lifetime. How are we going to do better from a distance of 200-some years? I don't think it IS right to fictionalize someone's life without a disclaimer.

[Aquarius]

Thot made a comment on Consequences - Chapter 2 by Hoshissis that I have found so clever and interesting that I wanted to open a thread about that.

I had said: If I am not mistaken, there's a phrase, in the abomination, that T'Pol says, something like - Commander Tucker is always in agreement with the Captain.

Thot replied: Well, I have to say, that I still don't believe that the words spoken by the holographic images of the NX-Enterprise crew are 1:1 recordings, since these would mean, that there were microfones everywhere on the ship (in their quarters for example) => Starfleet as Big Brother.
So personally, I take every single word from the hiolodeck inside the reality of *the_abomination* as invented by a writer, because something else doesn't make sense.

Thot is VERY right, in my head. What he said is able to explain PERFECTLY that all we have seen in the abomination is totally invented.

What do you think of Thot's idea?
I am curious.

Well, this is pretty much what many of us have been saying all along--that any "gaps" left by official recordings are going to be filled in by log recordings and eyewitness accounts, which are going to be tainted by flawed memory and skewed by personal perspective. And then when you add someone who wasn't even there to put it all together in the form of a book or holographic program or whatever, you've just increased the likelihood of bias and human error.

It's mostly a restatement of how/why many people dismiss *the_abomination*.

[Asso]

Thank all for all the replies.
I must say that I was aware that many people had the same perceptions that Thot had had, and that many writers developed the idea of the fallacy of the the holodeck.
But Thot took me to think pretty clearly of the total absurdity of the whole matter.
And, above all, but why the hell should Riker seeks a response for his vital question, being based on a fallacious holodeck? He he should be aware of its unreliability.
The Abomination doesn't make sense, but the story itself, its motivations, are absurd. And stupid.

[Thot]

And, above all, but why the hell should Riker seeks a response for his vital question, being based on a fallacious holodeck? He he should be aware of its unreliability.

How many characterisations in Star Trek have already been made by comparing or even quoting lines from Moby Dick?
Complete lines from Khan in Star Trek II are rephrase lines from Captain Ahab or in Star Trek VIII, where Picard gets openly compared to Captain Ahab in his baviour to the Borg.
Literature, films, series, books, pictures, music etc. have sometimes a way to transport an idea/ a message that the best common words couldn't express.
Therefore, I find it quite understandable, that in the 24th century there would be a counseling programme for Starfleet Officiers, who are in need of a few insights concerning such a matter like Riker is facing, because it could perhaps work as a guide line.

Once again: The fundamental idea of the episode isn't bad at all, but the way they handled it is simply an atrocity.

The Abomination doesn't make sense, but the story itself, its motivations, are absurd. And stupid.

If Riker would really think, he knows the crew of Enterprise because of the programme, or the people on Enterprise-D would claim that all scenes in the programme are records of the crew than it would be completly absurd.

On the other hand, the fact that all we have seen in the final of the series is a mere attempt of a holodeck writer, makes it even more shameful, that Enterprise didn't get his own final, but ended as a footnote of a TNG episode.

[Alelou]

On the other hand, the fact that all we have seen in the final of the series is a mere attempt of a holodeck writer, makes it even more shameful, that Enterprise didn't get his own final, but ended as a footnote of a TNG episode.

Yes, it was incredibly disappointing and really quite insulting. Perhaps the producers were feeling nostalgia for the heyday of Star Trek, when TNG went out with the ratings still going strong. Too bad that in the process they left such a terrible taste in the mouth of Ent's fans. It would have been better to call Terra Prime the final episode and produce some other, completely different TNG/DS9/VGR/ENT totally-Trek special without putting the Ent credits on it -- but even if they had produced this "valentine" as a TNG episode it should have been more respectful of Ent. I can't believe there wasn't petulance, anger and hostility involved in that decision-making, even if it might have been subconscious.

[Asso]

..., it was incredibly disappointing and really quite insulting. Perhaps the producers were feeling nostalgia for the heyday of Star Trek, when TNG went out with the ratings still going strong. Too bad that in the process they left such a terrible taste in the mouth of Ent's fans. It would have been better to call Terra Prime the final episode and produce some other, completely different TNG/DS9/VGR/ENT totally-Trek special without putting the Ent credits on it -- but even if they had produced this "valentine" as a TNG episode it should have been more respectful of Ent. I can't believe there wasn't petulance, anger and hostility involved in that decision-making, even if it might have been subconscious.

This could be true, rather I think this is true.
Which demonstrates how much illogical Humans are.