Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[Aquarius]

This thread actually has me excited about one of the classes I'm taking this fall, the Psychology of Religion. I plan to pose the question about Vulcans and religion to my professor.

I think one of the big problems I'm having with this discussion is that the initial question doesn't allow for a religion of philosophy vs. a religion of theology. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a society that pursues logic and emotional control buying into theology. Once again, they'd regard it as superstition. Yes, they may ask questions like "where did we come from and why are we here?" but that doesn't mean they'd seek the answers in a church. Furthermore, unlike humans, they *know* they possess a katra, which can live on after their body expires, so they don't need the "death insurance" of believing in something that will guarantee them a happy afterlife. This doesn't mean *we* shouldn't question where we came from or what comes next...I'm just saying that if you put yourself in the place of a Vulcan--a real one, not one molded after an Earth Western world view--theology serves no "logical" purpose in their lives.

[Aikiweezie]

This thread actually has me excited about one of the classes I'm taking this fall, the Psychology of Religion. I plan to pose the question about Vulcans and religion to my professor.

I think one of the big problems I'm having with this discussion is that the initial question doesn't allow for a religion of philosophy vs. a religion of theology. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a society that pursues logic and emotional control buying into theology. Once again, they'd regard it as superstition. Yes, they may ask questions like "where did we come from and why are we here?" but that doesn't mean they'd seek the answers in a church. Furthermore, unlike humans, they *know* they possess a katra, which can live on after their body expires, so they don't need the "death insurance" of believing in something that will guarantee them a happy afterlife. This doesn't mean *we* shouldn't question where we came from or what comes next...I'm just saying that if you put yourself in the place of a Vulcan--a real one, not one molded after an Earth Western world view--theology serves no "logical" purpose in their lives.

Well put.

[Silverbullet]

Vulcans are depicted as logical and controlling of their emotions. Yet their emotions are constantly on dislay. T'Les tells T'Pol while she is dying that she loves T'Pol that is displaying an emotion. Koss tells T'Pol that he wants her to be happy (when he is trying to blackmail her into marriage) that is an emotional display.

T'Pol contatntly displayed Anger and Jealousy. Fact is that seemed to be the only way she could connect with Trip until "Bound"

She was pissed at him in "Unexpected" and seemed to be jealous of ah'len. In Oasis she was jealous of the girl and pissed at Trip because he said the girl was a help to him. In Harbinger she was also jealous and Pissed at him. In e2 she was angry with him when he tried to get her toadmit that she might have feelings for him.

so, vulcans, or at least t'Pol displayed their Emotions openly and did not do such a great job of controlling them. It eemed too that some of thieir logic was just tradition and customs.

Do the vulcans have the same need for a religion as Humans do? I think they would have the same need for the Answers that Humans do and just might form a belief that prvided those answers.

SB

[Aquarius]

Do the vulcans have the same need for a religion as Humans do? I think they would have the same need for the Answers that Humans do and just might form a belief that prvided those answers.

SB

They did: the pursuit of logic through the teachings of Surak.

Yeah, T'Pol displayed emotion--they established that she wasn't as good at controlling it as other Vulcans, plus she's had the occasional affliction to explain it. Regardless, I'm sure every Vulcan falters at least once. You know what? That doesn't make her less Vulcan. That's like saying Christians don't sin. They do. But they're apparently still Christians.

Just saying.

[honeybee]

Most religions do not expect perfect adherence to their principles. They present an ideal to live up to. I do believe that devotion to Surak and the surrounding practice constitutes an Eastern-style religion - and so Surak himself presents an ideal that other Vulcans will live up to with various levels of success and commitment. There are even practices, such as kolinhar, which help them become better followers.

And even though I am feeling a little like I'm over hammering at this point, but I don't see Vulcan faith, despite their rigid nature, as theologically dogmatic. There are obviously rituals and sacraments, some of which pre-date Surak, but I think day to day practice is probably quite personal and is based mostly on meditation.

[Alelou]

Similarly, according to studies most Americans who call themselves religious are not particularly dogmatic about it -- they switch around from one affiliation to another over a lifetime, they worship in their own ways that may not include regular attendance or traditional beliefs, they attend regular religious gatherings but they take bits and pieces but not the whole she-bang. I know I have many Catholic friends who would be horrified if someone suggested they thought the Pope was really infallible or that women really shouldn't be priests.

Besides, in Enterprise canon alone we have the V'Tosh Katur and the Syrannites and V'Lar's nontraditional approach -- all evidence that Vulcan society is not a monolith.

[Silverbullet]

Is meditation the same thing as thinking? When you meditate do you think or are you trying to reach anothe rplane? When a Tibetan Monk Meditates what is going on in his mind? The cosmos? What he had for lunch? His belief? Or is he just thhinking?

I do one hell of lot of thinking. Am I meditating? When I want a moment or two of quiet reflection (Meditating?) I listen to Soprano Opera Arias.

What is meant by meditating? It has been cited often in this discussion.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Well Human meditation has many meanings, heck there are many different types of meditation for a human. All with different purposes. For a Vulcan, considering the "white space" was T'Pol's mental "meditation space" I'd say for Vulcans it's the mental processing of sensations, thoughts, feelings, their own and others, that they've experienced in a day. They block out everything around them, even their own concious thoughts, and process everything until they are left in a stimulant free mental space... "White space." It serves as their REM so they can maintain control, and focus on their logic.

At least that's how T'Pol, Tuvok, and Spock hinted at how Vulcan meditation worked. They never were too specific.

I guess my problem with this dicussion is the arguement that if Vulcans acknowleged the possibility of a higher power or "God" they would automatically have to worship said power or "God" in the way many western people equate acknowledging a "God" with doctrine and church. I don't see why that is? Believing and worship are two totally different things.

[Pegmumm]

I've sat a couple of Buddhist mediations... 8 hour long sittings. Focusing the mind on the internal conversation within ones head can be... enlightening.
Thinking is not meditation however when you meditate you see to stop all thought, to become an empty vessel kinda.

You can meditate on a word... or a feeling or whatever. I have gotten to the point where all I need to do is hear a certain series of notes on my meditation tape.. and my mind falls back into a meditative state regardless of where I am. It helps with the stress at work. But it also means that I am not as high on adrenaline as I ought to be given my work requirements. A certain level of hypomania is required.

hmmm... meditation is mindfulness. Becoming aware of the processes that drive us and having control over them. Approaching life as a choice rather than reacting to everything that happens around us in a mindless manner.

Being active.. instead of reactive.
Coming from a core set of beliefs and ethics that govern not just our outer life but our inner one.
hmmmmm... tempting
peg

[Aquarius]

Is meditation the same thing as thinking? When you meditate do you think or are you trying to reach anothe rplane? When a Tibetan Monk Meditates what is going on in his mind? The cosmos? What he had for lunch? His belief? Or is he just thhinking?

I do one hell of lot of thinking. Am I meditating? When I want a moment or two of quiet reflection (Meditating?) I listen to Soprano Opera Arias.

What is meant by meditating? It has been cited often in this discussion.

SB

From Merriam-Webster online:

1 : to engage in contemplation or reflection
2 : to engage in mental exercise (as concentration on one's breathing or repetition of a mantra) for the purpose of reaching a heightened level of spiritual awareness

[Alelou]

From what I learned in meditation you attempt to shut down or at least stop being engaged with your usual thoughts by just focusing on one thing -- for T'Pol it appears to be a candle flame -- for me it's usually a chant -- until you obtain a sort of quiet peaceful state in which you are just comfortable being. I recognize having reached a meditative state successfully if I feel refreshed and my sense of how much time has passed is off when I'm finished.

I think it's a great discipline, but techniques for doing it vary tremendously, as you will see if you google "basic meditation techniques." It's probably easiest to start with some guided meditation from someone who knows what they are doing. Counting breaths is probably a good way to start -- there's stuff all over the web on that. (That's also a hell of a lot more convenient to do in hospitals when you're trying not to stress out than chanting Om Namah Shivayah.)

[Aquarius]

hmmm... meditation is mindfulness. Becoming aware of the processes that drive us and having control over them. Approaching life as a choice rather than reacting to everything that happens around us in a mindless manner.
peg

I like that you brought this up. My yoga teacher last semester talked about this all the time, even gave us a few short written assignments with the goal of making us more mindful.

[pdsldl]

You don't process your emotions or your day during meditation -- the object is to you release it all. Giving it thought gives it power to rule you so you do as Pugmumm suggested. You chant or concentrate on a spot or a flame or a feeling or a place, whatever it is that allows you to let go of all your thoughts, feelings, and stress. With practice you will become aware of some core part of yourself, an inner voice according to the Sensei, when you find you have a particular issue that is troubling you. I would imagine T'Pol would have had many occasions where mediation time to was needed to reconcile her Vulcan beliefs with human ones so she could perform her duties.

[WarpGirl]

OK that made no sense whatsoever, or I need glasses.

[pdsldl]

WG if you don't know what it is look up Nirvana. That is what you are after during meditation. Unencumbered awareness free of all worldly constructs, a higher level of awareness where your mind clings to nothing. Buddhists monks meditate for so many hours to reach this level of awareness in an attempt to carry it forward into their waking life. You have to be dedicated to reach the higher level of consciousness. I never saw the return on sacrificing such a large amount of time away from living my life. I always thought the Vulcans were similar to Buddhists in their goals to put all emotion out of their consciousness and that their adherence to daily sessions helped them make their suppression of emotion more of an autonomic reflex or response.