Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[Aquarius]

I don't think it's such a contradiction that a society that tries to live by a code of logic and reason would develop monasteries. It seems "logical" for the more learned and adept to maybe feel called to help those who need guidance. Also, as for "mysticism," remember that their own history has been misrepresented to them for a long time; it was the Syrranites who were finally able to bring this to light, so any perceived "mysticism" is more or less the result of this obscured history, which they are learning more and more about as they go. Again, it would make sense that the monks and priests would have a vested interest in this, as a means to help the rest of their society along on the path that Surak truly envisioned.

[Asso]

It there will be something we will manage to be in agreement with, Aquarius? Honestly, and, please, do no take this wrong, or people do not catch my sense of humour or I am incapable of making people understand it.

[pdsldl]

I agree Aquarius that katras, bonds, mind melds, and telepathy weren't mystical to the Vulcans because it was a reality for their people. These were all a part of their true nature that had been hidden from them or shrouded in shame to keep them from becoming enlightened. These things weren't irrational or supernatural or part of some religious beliefs -- they were what it meant to be Vulcan. These things didn't make them more human their struggle to reconcile all these facets of themselves with their need for control is what makes them interesting to me. That and viewing situations through a different lens than normal and then considering how what I see impacts my life and perspective.

[Aquarius]

I really don't know what to tell you, Asso. You said you saw contradictions, and that you liked contradictions. That's cool--I'm not telling you that you can't. However, in response to what you said, I said what *I* thought about the contradictions you mentioned. I'm not interested in trying to change your mind; as you so aptly observed, there is very little we agree upon when it comes to TnT and often the show itself.

I just think that the "mysticism" you speak of isn't incompatible with their pursuit of logic. First of all, mysticism isn't the same as theology, which I *do* think is incompatible with their way of life. Secondly, it's only really "mystical" to us, the outsiders, the Humans (both viewers and characters) who are getting a snapshot view of things that took thousands of years to become the way they are now. It works both ways: *we* look pretty weird to *them*, until they are given the basis for understanding. Unlike us, though, they keep secrets from the outsiders; their own people are going to be less likely to view their world and their beliefs and practices as "mystical," because it isn't foreign to *them*.

And remember, our own race thought fire was mystical, until we learned enough about it to harness it and control it. Hell, that's why Man developed religion in the first place--but we no longer need to worship a god of fire or a god of the hunt or a goddess of fertility, because we know better now; these things no longer have their "mysticism" because we understand them now..

What we consider Vulcan "mysticism" is, often, just a part of their daily lives.

Whether or not I missed some kind of joke, Asso, I can't say. If I did, I'm sorry, but I didn't get it.

[Silverbullet]

In my Star Trek Encyclopedia it says that Vulcans are able to commit "Ritual suicide" if they are old and infirm and have nothing to live for.

If this is "Titual" wouldn't that sggest a Religious tone to it?

[Aquarius]

No, SB, it doesn't. Religions have rituals, but not all rituals are religious.

I have a bedtime ritual. It includes brushing my teeth, cleaning my piercings, making sure my cat has enough food through the night, and snuggling in and reading a little before lights out. Nothing religious about that. I just do the same things, in the same order, every time the same occasion that comes up.

A ritual just implies that there is a specific way something is done.

Dictionaries are our friend:

done in accordance with social custom or normal protocol

So in this case, if a an aged Vulcan was, say, terminally ill and infirm, no hope for recovery or a decent quality of living, then social custom allows him to end his life in order to end the burden to himself and his family. Otherwise, a suicide would be regarded as "illogical" I'm sure.

[WarpGirl]

OK in an attempt to keep the conversation going I'd like to point out that there is no evidence to suggest that Vulcans strive to attain Nirvana. I am familiar with that. Secondly the idea that Vulcans are not supposed to deal with emotions is totally bogus. They have to be able to "deal with them" in order to surpress them and finally let them go! Its a process. That eventually leads to Kolinahr... But even after achieving Kolinahr emotions still need to be processed and "dealt with" through meditation and other mental disciplines. More people should really watch VOY around here, seriously. The point of Kolinahr is to bring your mind to a state where emotions will not impact your choices at all. Not to stop the mind from forming them to begin with. A good episode to understand this is Meld.

PS. My mother a long time Trekkie pointed out to me that Vulcans have acknowledged that there is a possibility of a "higher power" or "God" many times in the series, and most recently the new movie.

Disregarding a theology or doctrine surrounding such a belief does not negate having the belief.

[Asso]

Forget it, Aquarius. Never mind.
Once again, never mind.

[pdsldl]

To suppress means to prevent them from showing and to keep them from your conscious mind. Why must they examine them to suppress them. All they need to know is they exist and suppress them. If you begin to examine them they take on importance and defeat the goal of not allowing them to influence you. One function of their meditation is to prevent them from dreaming, which is where most of us deal with our inner selves. Vulcans avoid this because it' s emotional, messy and unpredictable and would lead to allowing emotional issues into your conscious mind.

[WarpGirl]

Its more complicated than that pdlsdl, much more complicated.

[pdsldl]

WG, let's agree to disagree on that.

[Silverbullet]

aqurius. It said "ritual" that means a defined way of doing it. That suggests that it is not something that is done casually.

In Catholic Church the celebration of the host is a ritual.

What you describe at night is a habit. You do the same things the same way every night. that is habit.

As I understand a ritual it is a defined way of performing an act that is done for a specific purpose on occasion.

High Mass is a ritual.

Baptism is aritual.

Brushing the teeth isn't

So when the Vulcans commit "Ritual Suicide" I take it to mean by a defined way to meet a certain criteria. Perhaps with the family in the next room. Or with a Priest standing by to guide the Person about to end his/her life.

If I am misunderstanding you I am sorry.

SB

[pdsldl]

From Wikipedia: A ritual may be performed on specific occasions, or at the discretion of individuals or communities. It may be performed by a single individual, by a group, or by the entire community; in arbitrary places, or in places especially reserved for it; either in public, in private, or before specific people. A ritual may be restricted to a certain subset of the community, and may enable or underscore the passage between religious or social states.

The purposes of rituals are varied; with religious obligations or ideals, satisfaction of spiritual or emotional needs of the practitioners, strengthening of social bonds, social and moral education, demonstration of respect or submission, stating one's affiliation, obtaining social acceptance or approval for some event — or, sometimes, just for the pleasure of the ritual itself.

The Japanese Samurai performed seppuku - ritual suicide also and it was not religious in nature. It was a code of the warrior that demonstrated their honor, courage, loyalty, and moral character. For Vulcans I would think they might prefer suicide rather than risking reverting to their uncontrolled violent natures. With bonds and katras being involved a priest assistance would seem a likely necessity, especially if there is a bonded mate involved.

[honeybee]

Meditation isn't always religious, but as seen in the series it takes on a highly religious, ritualistic connotation. Not everyone who practices yoga believes in Eastern Religion, and yet yoga and pranas are deeply rooted in spiritual practice. Praying, some would argue is a form of meditation. Friends of mine who practice/have knowledge of Tibetan Buddhism say that the word for prayer and the word for meditation are interchangeable.

However, since whatever Vulcans believe regarding a higher power, there's not shred of evidence that they believe in a Western-style interventionist God, they would not pray in the sense of asking God for anything. That, they would think was illogical. Again, GR based Vulcan religion on Eastern religion not Western. He felt that adherence to Logic was not incompatible with the basic knowledge he had about Zen and other traditions. Not all Eastern religions are as abstract as Zen or Tao, Hinduism is polytheistic and Tibetan Buddhism has a more sentient version of God - but Vulcans are more analogous to the former.

So in this case, if a an aged Vulcan was, say, terminally ill and infirm, no hope for recovery or a decent quality of living, then social custom allows him to end his life in order to end the burden to himself and his family. Otherwise, a suicide would be regarded as "illogical" I'm sure.

Another place where Vulcan ideas seem influenced by Eastern ones. Suicide is not a mortal sin in most eastern faiths, but rather allowable in some cases and even encouraged. It does depend on the faith, however, which circumstances are allowable.

Off topic fr a sec. I always liked the name of the guy played by connery: Thomas of Baskerville. Seeing as how that character was so much like Sherlock Holmes.

Then I highly recommend the book -which is filled with post modern references!

[Rigil Kent]

aqurius. It said "ritual" that means a defined way of doing it. That suggests that it is not something that is done casually.

This is a matter of pure semantics. You seemed locked in on the notion that all ritual is religious, which is flat out wrong. A graduation ceremony is a ritual and it isn't religious. My annual watching of the original Star Wars trilogy on the Memorial Day weekend is a ritual. As was point out, dishonored samurai in feudal Japan committed ritual suicide which had no religious connotations to it at all. The singing of the American national anthem at the beginning of a ballgame is a ritual. Fraternities and sororities have rituals built into them.

What you describe at night is a habit. You do the same things the same way every night. that is habit.

From Answer.com, one of the definitions of ritual is: "Being part of an established routine: a ritual glass of milk before bed." So Aquarius is correct - it's a ritual.

I tend to think that the Vulcans are spiritual but not religious. Viewed from a narrow, human-centric viewpoint, many of their traditions and rituals or even titles (monastery, priest, etc.) might be perceived as having a religious symbolism, but I don't see them as having anything resembling an actual organized religion of any sort.

Further, since everything being stated is translated to English, you also have a language barrier. "Priest" has religious connotations to it, but the actual title in Vulcan probably doesn't; the word priest is simply the closest word in English with a similar enough meaning.

But trying to humanize the Vulcans by presuming that they follow an Abrahamic religion because they use words like priest or monastery is, and forgive the pun, illogical.