Do Vulcans have a Religion?

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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby justTripn » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:00 am

OK, WarpGirl, you're good. Forgot about Sybok. From Wikipedia:

As a young student, Sybok was exceptionally gifted and possessed great intelligence. It was even assumed that one day he would take his place among the great scholars of Vulcan. Sybok, however, was a revolutionary, as the knowledge and experience he sought was forbidden by Vulcan belief. Sybok rejected the idea of pure logic, preferring instead to balance it with emotion of his Vulcan ancestors. When he encouraged others to follow him, he was banished from Vulcan, never to return.

During his studies, Sybok received visions given to him by what he believed to be "God", beginning his journey for a place in Vulcan mythology known as Sha Ka Ree


OK, so granted. Anybody, even a Vulcan, can wonder about God. But I sincerely doubt that Star Trek era mainstream Vulcan religion was meant to be theistic. As for "gods of our forefathers" "prayers" and the Kalifee I'm going to guess that this is a case of different aspects of a culture not always "gluing together" perfectly. They had certain beliefs and customs that were for the most part, but not completely, displaced by the teachings of Surak. Or more likely, they were glued somehow whether they really fit or not. Just like christianity has incorporated elements of Greek philosophy. In the case of Thai Buddism, there are spirits house, that look like little bird houses. People build them to lure ghosts out the real house into the spirit house). Well, if I understand correctly, the existence of these spirits doesn't quite jive with the idea of successive incarnations until one reaches Nirvanha. But the belief in spirits predated the belief in Buddhism, so there you have it. I can easly see Vulcan culture involving a mix of old and new, with Surak's logic overlaying these older practices: meditation, prayer, or whatever.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Aquarius » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:08 am

Silverbullet wrote:Aqarius, what you have in the secon d part of you rpost is what the Vulcans have from Surak. I am asking if they have the first part of your post. A Religious belief.


Yeah. I know. We've been talking about that all thread long.

And I maintain that what the Vulcans practice is the second part of my post, not the first, because of their devotion to logic and reason. Yes, you have exceptions like Sybok...but he was ruled by his emotions...and crazy. Not representative of his people at all. An exception, not a rule.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Alelou » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:10 am

What I want to know is whether a Thai person gets upset if a bird moves into his spirit house....
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:14 am

Double post. that is what I said: My belief is that I don't Know. That I cannot know for sure of anything.

for instance. I know that I think but I do not know that you think the same way as I do. I know what I think of as the color Green but I do not kknow if what I see is the same as wheat you see. We can both say that it a round Blue ball. But all that means is that we were at some time told that it was a round Blue Ball. Every time we see it we say "That is a round blue Ball" Another person who has been told the same thing may see a different thing but has been told that it is a round blue Ball. We both agree but we may not be seeing the same thing. We have no way of knowing.

I don't even know if the world I see it the same as you see. I just assume it is.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Alelou » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:24 am

Well, that would explain why many of seem to have seem completely different episodes and characters when we're talking about this show.... 8)
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:50 am

Alelou, I really trasure your marvelous sense of Humor.

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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Transwarp » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:35 am

Ah, Vulcans and religion! This is something I have long wondered about. I have many questions, and absolutely NO answers. Vulcan society clearly has many of the trappings of religion (priests, temples, monks, etc...) but their precise purpose or role in society is not clear. pdsldl speculates in an earlier post that they would help teach others how to master or purge emotions. Since I get the impression that these institutions predate Surak, this is not entirely plausible to me.

WarpGirl points out other instances where Vulcans are engaged in seemingly religious activities. It seems to me that a logical being would not bother praying unless there was someone to pray to. There is also the matter of the katra and whether this is the same as a soul, and what part it might play in Vulcan religion. (Like I said, many questions but no answers.)

Speaking of katras, I actually had a section in my latest chapter of 'Convicted' where I postulate that a Vulcan mating bond is not telepathic in nature, but is the actual joining of two people's katras. I vaguely referred to a body of literature I called the 'scriptures of the saints', but I was deliberately obtuse about it. I was sort of surprised that nobody remarked on this theory, but I suppose any discussion on the finer points of the story might have been displaced by all the controversy surrounding T'Pol's actions.

As for me, I see absolutely no reason why Vulcans could not share a rigorous adherence to logic and a simultaneous belief in God. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Aikiweezie » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:01 pm

Transwarp wrote:Ah, Vulcans and religion! This is something I have long wondered about. I have many questions, and absolutely NO answers. Vulcan society clearly has many of the trappings of religion (priests, temples, monks, etc...) but their precise purpose or role in society is not clear. pdsldl speculates in an earlier post that they would help teach others how to master or purge emotions. Since I get the impression that these institutions predate Surak, this is not entirely plausible to me.

WarpGirl points out other instances where Vulcans are engaged in seemingly religious activities. It seems to me that a logical being would not bother praying unless there was someone to pray to. There is also the matter of the katra and whether this is the same as a soul, and what part it might play in Vulcan religion. (Like I said, many questions but no answers.)

Speaking of katras, I actually had a section in my latest chapter of 'Convicted' where I postulate that a Vulcan mating bond is not telepathic in nature, but is the actual joining of two people's katras. I vaguely referred to a body of literature I called the 'scriptures of the saints', but I was deliberately obtuse about it. I was sort of surprised that nobody remarked on this theory, but I suppose any discussion on the finer points of the story might have been displaced by all the controversy surrounding T'Pol's actions.

As for me, I see absolutely no reason why Vulcans could not share a rigorous adherence to logic and a simultaneous belief in God. The two are not mutually exclusive.


I agree with your assessments. Transwarp.

I also see a LOT of smilarities between Buddhism and Vulcan religion (I see their rituals and practices as a religion, for sure).

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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby WarpGirl » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:38 pm

OK this was supposed to come after jT's post, DANG internet connection!!!! :banghead: Thanks jT nice to know my hours of fighting a terrible internet connection is worth something. :wink:

Just to clarify some things... I do not take Sybok as an authority on whether a Vulcan can legitimately believe in any form of higher power. He was a complete and total psycho I just brought him up because ST did a whole movie dealing with the subject.

I do take Spock's going to a family shrine, (even if TAS isn't canon) Tuvok's family going to one of the most sacred sites on all Vulcan, and asking priestesses to say prayers for his safety, and the fact that as far as I know, ST hasn't yet come up with irrefutable proof {in their universe} that a higher power or God does not exist, as evidence that a Vulcan could logically decide not to discount the existence of God without betraying Surak's teachings.

In other words, the belief that “it's a possibility” would not be considered illogical, or heresy. At least it probably wouldn't be after the second “Awakening.”

However, do I think they have the human equivalent of church on Sunday? No I don't.

BTW some things to look up... TNG's The Gambit parts 1&2, TOS's The Savage Curtain, TAS's Yesteryear, Mt. Seleya, because you'll get a link to Tuvok's Temple, and the link to the VOY episode that I can't remember the name too, Vulcan Mythology, and The Teachings and Philosophies of Surak.

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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby crystalswolf » Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:50 pm

Okay, haven't had my morning (technically) cup of coffee yet so I hope this makes sense.

I think a lot of the pre-Surak aspects of Vulcan culture remain as comfort. Very much like European countries that still have their monarchy with all of the rituals and traditions although much of it (power) has changed. Or the Catholic church that cobbled together pagan traditions to mesh with their own beliefs.

Vulcan "clergy" and prayers do not necessarily have to do with a god(s) but could have been one of these cultural comforts adjusted to fit their new belief system, logic. Clergy changed to meet the new need of assistance and logical guidance, while prayers are a form of meditation that focus the mind. I guess I could believe that they accept a form of the concept of a universal consciousness though, because they know katras to be real and know telepathy to be real.

I guess it's one of those things we each see differently but I just can't see Vulcans worshiping some being(s) just because it's more advanced than they are (SG1 Ori). The term "god" assumes worship while the term "advanced being" acknowledges the existence of such a being but without worship (Prophets vs. Wormhole Aliens)

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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby honeybee » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:36 pm

I guess it's one of those things we each see differently but I just can't see Vulcans worshiping some being(s) just because it's more advanced than they are (SG1 Ori). The term "god" assumes worship while the term "advanced being" acknowledges the existence of such a being but without worship (Prophets vs. Wormhole Aliens)


I'm pretty sure that GR even admitted somewhere that he based Vulcan religion on Zen Buddhism (while Klingon religion is an amalgam of Viking and Samurai culture) - but I think both the belief systems evolved as the show did.

So, I'm thinking that if Vulcans believe it God - it's more in line with the abstract God of Buddhism rather than the sentient, paternalistic God of the big three western monotheistic religions. God is a concept you know or get in touch with through practice - rather than please or worship.

So, I'm basically agreeing with you CW. If Vulcans do have a God, they don't get down on their knees and prostrate themselves. God is more of an idea that becomes part of oneself as Enlightenment is achieved.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Transwarp » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:44 pm

crystalswolf wrote:Vulcan "clergy" and prayers do not necessarily have to do with a god(s) but could have been one of these cultural comforts adjusted to fit their new belief system, logic. Clergy changed to meet the new need of assistance and logical guidance, while prayers are a form of meditation that focus the mind.

This is very plausible. I can easily see the ancient forms and rituals being 'updated' to fit the new norms. And prayer as a form of meditation I can also comprehend, except for one thing: all the Vulcans we've seen are constantly meditating but they never call it prayer. And the episode that WarpGirl cites (where Tuvok's family asked priestesses to say prayers for his safety) doesn't fit with that either. First, if it is a form of meditation then asking someone else to perform it sort of defeats the purpose. Second, a prayer for safety is a prayer of petition or supplication. Which implies a separate entity is being petitioned. I don't see the logic of submitting a petition without believing there is someone on the other end to receive it.

crystalswolf wrote:The term "god" assumes worship while the term "advanced being" acknowledges the existence of such a being but without worship (Prophets vs. Wormhole Aliens)

While 'god' does imply worship, I don't see it as a requirement. To me, 'god' implies supernatural powers while 'advanced being' is a being with more power than you (but not necessarily supernatural). If the advanced being is advanced enough, he may appear supernatural, but the difference is still there.

I think if Vulcans were to worship a god, it would not look the same as human worship. Especially not after Surak's time. What it would look like I can't say. Probably more private and less communal than humans (although they'd be missing out on some pretty good pot-luck dinners!)
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby pdsldl » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:10 pm

HB and CW I tend to agree with you both. My beliefs have evolved to be much as you describe. No personification of god more of an energy or connection between all things but I use the word god to make others more comfortable and to stop others from engaging in arguments to change my mind. I pray to the universe putting things out there sometimes to express my need for help/guidance other times just to say whatever is weighing me down out loud to release some of my frustration. For a Vulcan I can imagine similar actions because of their belief in katras and their other abilities. Spock spoke of how the Vulcan's were an enigma because of their clashing beliefs and rituals of old and new and because they were confronted with such things as the dichotomy of suppressing emotions but then having to contend with Pon Farr and the loss of control. Very difficult to find a balance between logic, their more carefree days of emotions running a muck, and their biology finding a way around their self-imposed denial of those emotions. Doesn't help that there were those who were undermining (V'Las and the Romulans) their progress. It can take centuries for things to work themselves out and then trickle down through an entire civilization and sometimes you can't reconcile things so the collective more practical, pragmatic self says to just move on and do the best you can. Vulcans didn't have all the answers they were just getting on with it just like the rest of us.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:11 pm

The possiblity that Vulcans do not have an Organized Religion is interesting. but Monk's, High Priestess suggests one. Each vulcan having a personal belief, perhaps.

But I still think that being rational, logical beings the great questions would weigh on them or their thinkers. Vulcans are logical. the could not look at the Universe and not question. They travel the stars meet other species. They must ask questions. Logic can carry them only so far. After that it is speculation and that could lead to a Religion of some sort.

As I grow older I am hedging my bets. I am starting to take akeen interst n an afterlife. Chicken? Perhaps.

In the series I wondered when Trip was at deaths door in Observer afect if T'Pol might not have asked her personal God to intercede on his behalf.

I always thought that meditation was considering ones life or daily problems. Thinking of a relatives problems. In Home, T'Les says that she cannot mediatate while T'Pol is around. Does that mean she is engaged in silent prayer? Or wondering what T'Pol has brought home.

I don't know but believe that rational logical beings like Vulcans would tackle the great questions and seek answers. But how can they answer the question of where the Sparkk of life came from. Or how they and we think. Science cannot answer it so they must seek an answer elsewhere.
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Re: Do Vulcans have a Religion?

Postby Alelou » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:25 pm

My Scottish grandpa became an atheist in one of the wars after he saw a movie theater full of children bombed. Then on his deathbed in the hospital, one of his cousins persuaded him back into Christianity. This pissed the hell out of my dad, but I kind of think it's nice that he had something comforting to hang onto as he went.

I'm kind of curious to see how my father copes, since he's talking about death quite a bit these days (though he also plans trips to Scotland, so I don't think he's quite doomed himself yet). His philosophy on religion is a sarcastic "interesting, if true."

My almost 90-year-old grandmother, meanwhile, claims she's so bored so she might as well die, but I suspect that's mostly part of her ongoing attempt to guilt-trip my poor mother. Truth is she's so healthy she could probably outlive both my parents, who are both cancer survivors at this point and have other health issues, too.

I'm curious to see how my mother ends up. She grew up Southern Baptist but was always into funky weird stuff like Edgar Cayce and reincarnation and Orgone Energy and so on. Personally I think she'll hang on as long as one of her favorite TV shows has a big episode coming up...
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