Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[honeybee]

An interesting side question is whether T'Pau registers as a political or religious leader? Surak, as I have said before, registers as a Buddha analogy. But T'Pau is more complex. She becomes a political figure, but her grounding is in Surak's Philosophy. But when seeking analogies - I don't see her as Puritan Oliver Cromwell but more like a deist Jefferson or Adams. The didn't govern as a representative God or intend to inflict their ideas on others, but their ideas informed how they governed. I don't think it's a perfect analogy - but I can't think of a better one off the top of my head.

[pdsldl]

T'Pau is an interesting case. Her predecessor had his own designs on the office (wish the Vulcan arc had delved into the Romulan connection a lot more) but he was not a religious figure. She presided over Spock's non-marriage in "Amok Time' so perhaps that was a sign that Vulcans had embraced the idea that all Vulcans were capable of mind-melds and a priest wasn't required any longer or was she there as more than the leader of her people.

[Silverbullet]

I didn't say that ritual was connected solely to Religion. I have seen Ritual that is not at all Relgious. Changing of the Guard at Buckingham, in Denmark, Bulgaria and at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. They are all Ritual. I know that. I did not say that Ritual was bound only to Religion.

As far as I am concerned you cannot change Ritual without some consequences. But you can change Habit with no effect. I can brush my teeth and put on my Pajamas or put on my Pajamas then brush my teeth. Doesn't change or affect anything. But a Ritual, change does affect it.

I also did not say that ritual suicide of vulcans was Religious I said it had religious tones.

I think we are losing sight of the fact that Roddenbury created, or had crated, the Vulcans. apparenty he based some of the Vulcans on Buddism. So was it Rodenbury's intent for Vulcans to have a Religion? How much of Star Trek has been changed from Roddenbury's origiginal concept by larer writers?

[WarpGirl]

OK first of all, I don't think SB or anyone asserting that Vulcans might reasonably believe in a higher power have to follow a doctrine or organizational "church" as defined by western standards.

Second ST.com says T'Pau is a Priestess. But it didn't say she was the most powerful priestest on Vulcan. To me that says that while priests or priestesses can run the government if they're qualified, the "spiritual" Orders of Vulcan do not rule Vulcan.

Third, I see T'Pau as a female Dali Lama, but that's just an opinion.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, interesting theory. You have found many things so far. One thing this may establish is that the Vucans at least had people with the title of Priest and Priestess even if they may not have been seen in a religious context. Although I cannot see a Priest or Priestess of Surak Many on this thread compare him to Lord Budda.

I once attended a Buddist church for services. It was like any other Church with a leader and Ritual, a sermon. I am not sure if it was a sect or mainline Buddist.

SB

[honeybee]

From good, old Wikipedia. There are main two branches of Buddhism.

Theravada

In Theravada doctrine, a person may awaken from the "sleep of ignorance" by directly realizing the true nature of reality; such people are called arahants and occasionally buddhas. After numerous lifetimes of spiritual striving, they have reached the end of the cycle of rebirth, no longer reincarnating as human, animal, ghost, or other being. The commentaries to the Pali Canon classify these awakened beings into three types:

* Sammasambuddha, usually just called Buddha, who discovers the truth by himself and teaches the path to awakening to others
* Paccekabuddha, who discovers the truth by himself but lacks the skill to teach others
* Savakabuddha, who receive the truth directly or indirectly from a Sammasambuddha

Bodhi and nirvana carry the same meaning, that of being freed from craving, hate, and delusion. In attaining bodhi, the arahant has overcome these obstacles. As a further distinction, the extinction of only hatred and greed (in the sensory context) with some residue of delusion, is called anagami.


Mahayana

In the Mahayana, the Buddha tends not to be viewed as merely human, but as the earthly projection of a beginningless and endless, omnipresent being (see Dharmakaya) beyond the range and reach of thought. Moreover, in certain Mahayana sutras, the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha are viewed essentially as One: all three are seen as the eternal Buddha himself.

Celestial Buddhas are individuals who no longer exist on the material plane of existence, but who still aid in the enlightenment of all beings.

Nirvana came to refer only to the extinction of greed and hate, implying that delusion was still present in one who attained Nirvana. Bodhi became a higher attainment that eradicates delusion entirely. Thus, the Arahant attains Nirvana but not Bodhi, thus still being subject to delusion, while the Buddha attains Bodhi.

The method of self-exertion or "self-power"—without reliance on an external force or being—stands in contrast to another major form of Buddhism, Pure Land, which is characterised by utmost trust in the salvific "other-power" of Amitabha Buddha. Pure Land Buddhism is a very widespread and perhaps the most faith-orientated manifestation of Buddhism and centres upon the conviction that faith in Amitabha Buddha and the chanting of homage to his name will liberate one at death into the "happy land" (安樂) or "pure land" (淨土) of Amitabha Buddha. This Buddhic realm is variously construed as a foretaste of Nirvana, or as essentially Nirvana itself. The great vow of Amitabha Buddha to rescue all beings from samsaric suffering is viewed within Pure Land Buddhism as universally efficacious, if only one has faith in the power of that vow or chants his name.

Nearly all Chinese Buddhists accept that the chances of attaining sufficient enlightenment by one's own efforts are very slim - so that Pure Land practice is essential as an "insurance policy" even if one practices something else.

Zen evolved from Mahayana but is now sufficiently different that scholars consider it its own small branch.

Zen

Zen Buddhism (禅), pronounced chán in Chinese, seon in Korean or zen in Japanese (derived from the Sanskrit term dhyāna, meaning "meditation") is a form of Buddhism that became popular in China, Korea and Japan and that lays special emphasis on meditation.[96] Zen places less emphasis on scriptures than some other forms of Buddhism and prefers to focus on direct spiritual breakthroughs to truth.

Zen Buddhism is divided into two main schools: Rinzai (臨済宗) and Soto (曹洞宗), the former greatly favoring the use in meditation on the koan (公案, a meditative riddle or puzzle) as a device for spiritual break-through, and the latter (while certainly employing koans) focusing more on shikantaza or "just sitting".[97]

Zen Buddhist teaching is often full of paradox, in order to loosen the grip of the ego and to facilitate the penetration into the realm of the True Self or Formless Self, which is equated with the Buddha himself.[98] According to Zen master, Kosho Uchiyama, when thoughts and fixation on the little 'I' are transcended, an Awakening to a universal, non-dual Self occurs: ' When we let go of thoughts and wake up to the reality of life that is working beyond them, we discover the Self that is living universal non-dual life (before the separation into two) that pervades all living creatures and all existence.'[99]. Thinking and thought must therefore not be allowed to confine and bind one. Nevertheless, Zen does not neglect the scriptures.

And Tantra is another branch that has sort of become it's own thing:

Esoteric Buddhism

Though based upon Mahayana, Tibeto-Mongolian Buddhism is one of the schools that practice Vajrayāna or "Diamond Vehicle" (also referred to as Mantrayāna, Tantrayāna, Tantric Buddhism, or esoteric Buddhism). It accepts all the basic concepts of Mahāyāna, but also includes a vast array of spiritual and physical techniques designed to enhance Buddhist practice. Tantric Buddhism is largely concerned with ritual and meditative practices. One component of the Vajrayāna is harnessing psycho-physical energy through ritual, visualization, physical exercises, and meditation as a means of developing the mind. Using these techniques, it is claimed that a practitioner can achieve Buddhahood in one lifetime, or even as little as three years. In the Tibetan tradition, these practices can include sexual yoga, though only for some very advanced practitioners.

[WarpGirl]

All very interesting, and definitely have some very basic principles of some Vulcan beliefs. But correct me if I am wrong, but Vulcans don't beilieve they trancend the physical even with their belief in the katra. Nor do they believe those who choose not to attain kolinahr to be under any delusion about life and its purpose. Or did I read the entire thing wrong? Because I might have, and if I did, I apologize and ask for clarification.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, do you remember a group in the U.S. that called themselves Hara Krisana (or somemthing lke that.) They were a royal pain in the butt. They were on street corners in Airports. Begging, clanging bells or gongs and jumping up and down as if trying ot dance. They irritated Hell out of people.

While in India is was shopping in Old Delhi in the Silver Stree (all businesses there dealt in Siler goods. I was speaking to the store owner. There was an American Student Dressed in a saffron Robe standing in the shop. The owner said he was one of these Hara Krisnanas. He said the guy could wait all day and he would not be waited on as he Indians hated that kind as they insulted the Indians. I never knew if these Hara Krishana thought they wre Buddist or what.

do you know?

[honeybee]

Krishnas, who are still around, are not Buddhists. They are Hindus. The proper name of the group is International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and it's a relatively new sect which was founded in the US in 1966. I've heard that traditional Hindus do feel it is a bastardization of the ancient Hindu Traditions, designed as a cult to appeal to westerners. It's still around - there's a big Krishna temple not far from where I live - but they rarely wear the orange garb anymore and they've stopped the proselytizing in public. Like a lot of cults, it's making a stab at respectability by toning itself down.

Buddhism grew out of Hinduism many centuries ago, Siddhartha was a Hindu, but Buddhism is a separate faith in the way that Christianity is separate from Judaism.

Hare Krishna is actually a sacred Hindu Mantra, and the cult got its nickname because they would chant the mantra in public, loudly.

[Alelou]

This reminds me of one of our favorite stories about my late mother-in-law, Guadalupe. A Hare Krishna tried to sell her a rose in Kennedy airport on one of their trips to or from Puerto Rico. Being a good Catholic and not terribly fluent in English, she responded, "Good idea, I love Maria!"

So we still sometimes randomly tack "I love Maria!" on when we say "Good idea."