This one line...

[Alelou]

I think you made a strong case for T'Pol, WG, but both Trip and T'Pol have this pattern of retreat and miscommunication.
In the awful breakfast scene in HarbingerT'Pol says in her scientific Vulcan way that she desired to sleep with Trip for a long time. The way Trip interpretates it is that she is dismissing the events, he takes words in his mouth like "experiment" and "lab rat". T'Pols literally says "That is not what I said", but the tone is set (and a lot of people took it the same way as Trip) and he retreats (Let's forget about it) and leans her a hand ("we still going to have NP). It's still hurt like his outburst later on "we didn't mate" shows.
I always thought that deep down Trip understood why T'Pol was struggling (because of her Vulcan backgroud), in fact some one pointed out in a comment to a story, Trip himself was reluntant to start a relationship with her giving her Vulcan background.
Then we have E2 and now T'Pol retreats and denies their feeling and Trip call her out "You afraid to admit you may start to have feeling for me or having them already."
T'Pol stays in this pattern of retreat untill between the end of season 3 and Home they start to have a relationship. Home brings a new set of angst.
Now Trip is retreating: he let T'Pol marry Koss (a very unVulcan act) and tries to comfort her that their relationship hadn't a chance any way. As a Vulcan T'Pol would interpretate this as dismissing their relationship all together.
However, Trip comes back to her, offers his friendship again after she is released from Koss and her mother has died and she shuts him down. Afterwards, she is telling him she needs to find her Vulcan path (her struggle all along) and he gets it.
How much Trip does understand, she retreated and denied their relationship in those two occassions, so I can fully understand Trip wanted to hear very clearly from her lips she wants him (back).
As for "It's not a big deal", maybe Trip still wanted to play it cool and avoid being hurt and doesn't TPol to know (giving his experiences) but T'Pol seems pleased things have been resolved (he didn't freak out over the bond) and they are back to their bickering stage.

ALL of these, including the line that was the last straw for Transwarp, are examples of the writers pulling back from a happy adult settled relationship, which is 1) why we write fanfic, and 2) why a certain sizeable chunk of the audience kept watching (even while a few may have thrown up their hands in disgust and left).

I didn't see it in 'real time' so I have no idea how frustrated I might have been with it while it was unfolding (probably plenty), but this is simply how important "will they/won't they?" relationships on TV tend to work.

But real relationships do have these moments, too, though. I can certainly vividly remember the day my future husband said, "Keep in touch," thinking that he was making it clear he was still interested, and I assumed he was saying the equivalent of "let's do lunch someday, okay?" Cultural differences and gender differences and the reality of two people with individual brains will always make life interesting for any two sentient beings. (It's too bad the writers didn't accept that this can happen just as much after a happy consummation as before.)

[Aikiweezie]

Aikeweezie,(sp) Millions of MIles? Try billions or even Trilions. A bond that incredibly strong to link two minds over such a vast distace. T-Pol should have been aware the Bond existed unless she tought she was dreaming the white room incident. Even so, a bond that strong and the two not being able to control it should have caused a number of problems for them being on the same ship. If she meditates or he day dreams they get linked, Powerfully. imagine if it his while both are working. They would be stopped by the powr of it. Doubt if the writers even thought of the magnitude of what they wrote. It seems like they thought it was just around the corner or in the next room instead of such a huge distance and power. The bond if it was that strong must have made life intersting for them.

I think it was clear in the episode that showed her reaction to Trip appearing in her white room that T'Pol was unnerved by the prospect and rightly so. The bond is meant to link and probably even pull bondmates together. It IS a big deal, a really BIG deal, and I think both Trip & T'Pol both knew that.

[Asso]

I am a simple man.
For me Trip merely meant that the Bond wasn't a Big Deal because it wasn't a big thing to deal with. Actually it was a little thing to deal with.
"After all - he meant - this is a thing we can deal with EASILY".

[WarpGirl]

OK Aikiweezie I think I understand what you're trying to say. But I disagree that Trip "knew the Bond was a HUGE deal" I don't think he had a clue what it was. Hence he said "no big deal" which could have been taken as a rejection by T'Pol if he hadn't kissed her back. In Demons and Terra Prime, I give him some slack because of the baby, but... during that time I think that he was just becoming aware that the bond is indeed a "HUGE deal."

[Alelou]

Really, I think the writers were just doing their annoying thing to slow things down (or maybe trying to preserve Trip's manhood since CT for example thought Trip was being a great big wuss over T'Pol), but in fanfic land I like to interpret that line as Trip trying to keep things low-key because 1) he has learned that T'Pol is often threatened by things that are NOT low-key, and 2) it's probably what he told himself as he decided to stay even though T'Pol might never come around. In short, I think we see that Trip is having some trouble shifting gears, and I really can't blame him for that, even if it does look a little immature.

[Silverbullet]

Wg, still believe that by Demons and Terra Prime Trip and T'Pol had an intimate relationship going on. The dialogue pointed to that. It was constantly stated that T'Pol had never been Pregnant. Since they were referring to a child that was Hers and Trips she could have said "I have never been prgnant by you." But never implies they had sex more than once. Phlox says basically the same whe he tells Trip the he would have known if T'Pol ever got pregnant. Later in the MIne T'Pol says "Trip yo think I may have gotten Prenant and didn't tell you about it" That too implies Sex more than the one time in the Expanse. Hell, how could T'Pol been Pregnant on board the Enterprise without the whole crew knowing about it. They wre on board for almost ayear after the night in the expanse and she would ave been sticking out a bit with the Baby.

[WarpGirl]

SB We are never going to agree on this so why don't we just drop it. Besides it has nothing to do with this topic. Alelou I sometimes think you really enjoy putting T'Pol down, and making her more insecure, or messed up, or whatever than she was. And I'm sorry Trip was 34 we all have to grow up somtime.

[Alelou]

Personally I think many of us don't ever grow up, and even those who do have their moments of childishness. It can be when we are our most endearing, or our most exasperating.

[justTripn]

NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR: The tone here is getting too personal and agressive, WarpGirl. Please be respectful and do not attribute motives to other people's opinions/positions. Silverbullet's speculations are sufficently on-topic. No problem there.

[panyasan]

ALL of these, including the line that was the last straw for Transwarp, are examples of the writers pulling back from a happy adult settled relationship, which is 1) why we write fanfic, and 2) why a certain sizeable chunk of the audience kept watching (even while a few may have thrown up their hands in disgust and left).

You're absolutly right, because this is the reason I started reading fan fic - and only about TnT. I am always searching for that one fic which is going solve my desire from TnT to have a good, adult relationship in a surprising way.
R/S-fics for example, I can't get my head into reading them, mostly because Hoshi seems to be so perfect in some fic's (Sorry R/S-fans) and I don't find their relationship very interesting. I just like my not so perfect T'Pol. I also seem to like unusual pairing: i remember a fic that paired Reed and Cole (not a lucky pairing and I loved it.
As for the cultural and gender difference, that's one aspect of TnT that I like so much. Maybe because it's close to home: according to my husband it's a miracle we surived our marriage, coming from different backgrounds and being very different. We have this running joke "that we still have to work on our communication skills". Like Trip said in Bound "We got a lot of work to do."

[Enerdhil]

T'Pol stays in this pattern of retreat untill between the end of season 3 and Home they start to have a relationship. Home brings a new set of angst.
Now Trip is retreating: he let T'Pol marry Koss (a very unVulcan act) and tries to comfort her that their relationship hadn't a chance any way. As a Vulcan T'Pol would interpretate this as dismissing their relationship all together.
However, Trip comes back to her, offers his friendship again after she is released from Koss and her mother has died and she shuts him down. Afterwards, she is telling him she needs to find her Vulcan path (her struggle all along) and he gets it.
How much Trip does understand, she retreated and denied their relationship in those two occasions, so I can fully understand Trip wanted to hear very clearly from her lips she wants him (back).

I can be a little naive, but I feel there is a point missing. After marrying Koss, it is Trip who is jerk with T'Pol. At 'Borderland' start, she approaches him to talk (tip toeing, maybe she wished to say "Ok, that was a formal marriage, but I still care about you, let's follow") and he straight asks about her honeymoon. I don't know how Americans interpret this, but I would never dare to ask a female colleague of mine about her honeymoon. One of my previous partners broke with me (in good terms) because she fell in love with another person. We are still work partners and good friends, but if I ask her about the last honeymoon, she will certainly told me to f... That was a question to invade a personal intimacy. Later on, when she answers him, telling about Mount Seleya, he runs out saying is it not his business (if it is so, why 'd asked?). In another scene is T'Pol who asks why he is avoiding her (it is a mirror scene of E2). It is Trip now who is denying the relationship.

On the previous remarks, the breakfast scene of Hairbinger is a terrible demonstration of how a man can pass as an idiot. If I had a love night with such a beauty, I would tell her in the morning how good it was, as she was perfect (even if it was not), how I was pleased with her skills, etc... He jumbles around, so it is natural her to assume he hasn't liked, so an excuse about some 'exploration' would offer him a way out.

As for the final scene of Bound, the best description I can imagine is the last fan-fic by Elassar (aerobic pole dance). Really he deserves something nasty. By the way, when has Trip said that he loved her (not Sim, not to her mother)? Has he started (or asked for) a kiss with her anytime?

[Rigil Kent]

Blaming either of these characters for the dog's mess that was their relationship is patently illogical. As Alelou pointed out, the schizophrenic nature of their interactions is largely due to the showrunners and Hollywood's abject terror at writing a romance between Main Characters on a television show that doesn't involve 'will-they-won't-they' angst crap. Does anyone here believe that, if ENT had been picked up for season 5 and *the_abomination* didn't exist, Trip and T'Pol wouldn't continue their rampant stupidity? Of course T'Pol is written as an emotional 13 year old girl in the throes of her first major crush, and of course Trip is a wishy-washy sometimes spineless 13 year old boy. That's how TV producers always write characters like this.

So grumbling about Trip's season 4 actions or T'Pol's passive-aggressive BS that would have caused 99.9999999% of heterosexual men on Earth to get the hell away from her as quickly as possible is kind of illogical when viewed with that in mind.

[Alelou]

Leaving aside Rigil's comment, which takes the large view (and was posted while I was writing this more micro one), I think after your girlfriend drags you 16 light years to home to meet her mother and ends up marrying another guy, you're allowed to be a little snippy and certainly to avoid any attempts by her to try to re-establish any level of intimacy. But in this country asking about the honeymoon is really just a friendly inquiry along the lines of "how was your vacation?" (as opposed to "So how was sex with your new husband?" which would indeed be rude). Of course, in his case it might have had a subtext, i.e. "Hello, in case you forgot you're married to another dude."

We don't get to see Trip tell T'Pol he loves her, and I think it's reasonable to assume that T'Pol, especially being Vulcan, might have doubted this. Of course, she might have doubted it just as much if he did tell her. Unfortunately she tends to be blind to Trip's intermittent attempts to be sweet, like telling her she looks like an old oil painting. It's true, though -- Trip could have done a lot more to make it clear how he felt. He didn't quite man up the way many of us wish he did. However, I can't blame him for this at all once she's married to Koss.

And then there's what Rigil said.

[honeybee]

Of course you can take it with a grain of salt, but Manny Coto has said that he planned to have TnT permanently together in the fifth season - and that Bound was building to that plan. He's said that their relationship would not have been in the foreground often - but their status as one of the first interspecies couples would be explored.

Whether or not it would have been explored, well, is another matter. But there was built-in opportunities for tension and drama with them being together. Their literally, not figuratively, from different planets. They would have faced internal and external pressure.

But I think all of us pretty much agree that considering the bond - *the_abomination* was nonsensical. The bond, it seems to be, was created as a device to get them together and over their individual petty issues. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see it used that way.

[Rigil Kent]

Of course you can take it with a grain of salt, but Manny Coto has said that he planned to have TnT permanently together in the fifth season - and that Bound was building to that plan. He's said that their relationship would not have been in the foreground often - but their status as one of the first interspecies couples would be explored.

I guess I've watched too much television over the years to believe a word of what he says after the fact. Besides, it was under Coto's stewardship that the whole inane season 4 'will-they-won't-they' marriage-found religion-ship transfer angst really kicked off in the first place, so reading his post-series remarks about how they would be together in season 5 just seems weird. If he wanted to explore their status as one of the first interspecies couples (or more accurately, the first Human-Vulcan species since I suspect there were numerous cases of interspecies couples over the millenia), then why go through the nonsense of season 4 when they were ideally situated to begin exploration of that facet in the wake of season 3 and how TnT's relationship stood then.

So yeah. I take those remarks of his with a 5 gallon tub of salt, not just a single grain.