This one line...

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

BTW: I liked the avatar when T'Pol makes her face so much, I try to make it my own, but when I uploaded it, it had too much kb.

I think it will work if you upload it to your own photobucket account (or equivalent) and link to it from there.

[WarpGirl]

OK I'm sorry if two people are adults and sincerely want to have a productive, healthy, stable, relationship then that means that both of them will at times have to be the "bigger person." Show me one perfect person, and I will say they have a right to have their day in the sun by dealing with and accepting the flaws of another person. Forgiveness and trust doesn't require crowing, from anyone.

Yes Trip did have the right to push her to admit that she did want a relationship. In fact, he needed to as much for her sake as for his own. No question about it. However, with the "no big deal" line was confusing and took it too far. As for the Demons, Terra Prime conflicts... I'm sorry but none of it made any sense to me, and I was kind of mad at Trip in those.

[Transwarp]

I'm of a similar mind with WG. For me the 'no big deal' line was also confusing. Trip left the ship he loves and the people he respects and has friendships with because he'd had enough of T'Pol's refusal to commit. When she finally does, when he finally has an opening for an honest discussion, THIS is what he says? I don't get it.

Actually, I did get it. I knew exactly what it meant. It meant the writers were going to continue with that whole ridiculous will-they-won't-they adolescent-angst dance, and I was disgusted. At that moment I felt like throwing something at the TV (except I was watching it on a DVD in my computer.)

For me, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. The precise instant that drove me to write fan fiction, so I could repair the injustices foisted on us by such incompetence. I continued to watch the rest of the series, but I had no hope of a satisfactory resolution, and it turns out I was right. Grrr.

[WarpGirl]

I look at it this way... Yeah T'Pol screwed up many, many times from Harbinger on. There is absolutely no question that she needed a little pushing to help her get on the right track. I neither deny that or even think it was wrong. However, except for E2 which was an episode which I felt was a dis-service to both of them, I never once saw any deliberate attempt by T'Pol to manipulate Trip, toy with his feelings, jerk him around, or hurt him in any way. Now if I missed a line, or an episode where it was clear she was just screwing around with his feelings I'd love to be enlightened. She was in a situation (being in love with a human) where she had no idea what to do or how to handle it. So she stumbled in the dark and made major mistakes and Trip did get jerked around. But is this something she needed punished for?

Trip as far as I can tell chose to not step up and let T'Pol know that she either needed to talk to him honestly or let him go on with his life. I don't consider it a weakness or cowardice, but how was T'Pol supposed to change her behavior when all he really did was say, "Fine have it your way, (Harbinger) or Romeo and Juliet had a better chance, (Daedalus) or my feelings are purely professional, (The Aenar) and then run away when he can't take it anymore? The woman might be telepathic but she didn't even have the skills to even attempt to read his mind at that point. So he brought misery on both of them as well.

Trip didn't need an "upper hand." What he needed was for them to honestly address their problems, carefully and lovingly explain that he was hurt and why he was hurt, and be open and honest even though he could be hurt again. Now easier said than done. However, it only takes one person to destroy a relationship... But it takes two to make one successful. And as I have recently learned there are times when one partner has to be willing to do more work than the other. But lording that fact with a line like "This thing between us in't that big of a deal" over someone has the potential to do even more unecessary damage.

[panyasan]

I think you made a strong case for T'Pol, WG, but both Trip and T'Pol have this pattern of retreat and miscommunication.
In the awful breakfast scene in HarbingerT'Pol says in her scientific Vulcan way that she desired to sleep with Trip for a long time. The way Trip interpretates it is that she is dismissing the events, he takes words in his mouth like "experiment" and "lab rat". T'Pols literally says "That is not what I said", but the tone is set (and a lot of people took it the same way as Trip) and he retreats (Let's forget about it) and leans her a hand ("we still going to have NP). It's still hurt like his outburst later on "we didn't mate" shows.
I always thought that deep down Trip understood why T'Pol was struggling (because of her Vulcan backgroud), in fact some one pointed out in a comment to a story, Trip himself was reluntant to start a relationship with her giving her Vulcan background.
Then we have E2 and now T'Pol retreats and denies their feeling and Trip call her out "You afraid to admit you may start to have feeling for me or having them already."
T'Pol stays in this pattern of retreat untill between the end of season 3 and Home they start to have a relationship. Home brings a new set of angst.
Now Trip is retreating: he let T'Pol marry Koss (a very unVulcan act) and tries to comfort her that their relationship hadn't a chance any way. As a Vulcan T'Pol would interpretate this as dismissing their relationship all together.
However, Trip comes back to her, offers his friendship again after she is released from Koss and her mother has died and she shuts him down. Afterwards, she is telling him she needs to find her Vulcan path (her struggle all along) and he gets it.
How much Trip does understand, she retreated and denied their relationship in those two occassions, so I can fully understand Trip wanted to hear very clearly from her lips she wants him (back).
As for "It's not a big deal", maybe Trip still wanted to play it cool and avoid being hurt and doesn't TPol to know (giving his experiences) but T'Pol seems pleased things have been resolved (he didn't freak out over the bond) and they are back to their bickering stage.

[Aikiweezie]

As for the "this thing between us...it isn't such a big deal"-- yes, it was a little on the strange side. I guess I figured that he was telling her that the bond wasn't something he was upset about. Developing a bond was something that had probably never occurred to him. While the same could be said for T'Pol, the bond was primarily the result of her being Vulcan. I think he was just telling her that he was OK with being bonded to her, especially since she finally acknowledged her feelings for him.

I'm SO glad we're talking about this because it's been bugging me for a long time.

I don't think his comment had anything to do with the bond. What I think he meant was that this "thing between us" was this on-again off-again confused messed lack of communication relationship. THAT was not worth leaving over. He probably had a good idea at this time though beause of the bond and because of the way T'Pol had been treating him that she still had feelings for him and might be open to it, but he really wanted to come back and not run away from his problems.

Maybe we should have a new thread for the "I'm sick and tired of this bond we've got," line. I HATE that line.

[WarpGirl]

Panyasan I don't disagree with any of that. In fact that's kind of my point, they are both responsible for the mess they were in. They both could have done things to lessen the damage done. Trip was the one who understood that being in a romantic relationship means that you will get hurt sometimes. He also understood that sometimes you're the one doing the hurting. T'Pol didn't. She never had one before in her entire life. It never crossed her mind that she might be hurting Koss by breaking their betrothal. In fact I think many people gloss over the fact that she was also hurting, not just because of her "Vulcan upbringing" but because she could tell Trip was hurt, but she didn't understand how or why. And the last thing she wanted to do was hurt him.

I agree that Trip had to call her out and get her to tell him with actual words what she wanted. It was good for her. But Trip is an adult not a teenager, he knew he had choices, and he made them. I do not and never will agree that Trip was a victim, an emotional martyr to the whims of a capricious screwed up woman. To me that is the ultimate indignity to both of them! And here where we are so concerned for their dignity, I cannot understand this reasoning.

So all those fanfics about 'They clean the air after Elizabeth's death and all is well', can be quite nice and fluffy, but they are unrealistic as hell and from my point of view out of character. Trust needs time to develope and not only some finally shared words.
But that's also the advantage of fanfiction: Write what you like, not necessarily what is realistic or in character.

SinceThot brought this up I thought I'd comment. Honestly at that point they had bigger things to deal with than "Who was meaner to who." I mean their child was created without their knowledge and murdered. If they can't forgive and move on now, they should have broken up when *the_abomination* said they did. The way I see it is this is when they have to make the choice... Be together, fight like hell to make it a success... Or give up. I think they need three rules...

1. I accept the fact that I will screw up and hurt you.

2. I accept the fact that you will screw up and hurt me.

3. I accept the blood, sweat, (and in Trip's case) tears it will take to make this work.

Aikiweezie Although I adore your optimisim. I'm sorry to say that considering what we saw, I do think he was talking about the bond. Especially because of that hateful awful line! God I wanted to ring his neck!

[Aikiweezie]

Optimism has nothing to do with it. He knew darn well that the bond was a HUGE deal. HUGE enough to put T'Pol in is head across millions of miles. And it doesn't seem at all possible that beyond T'Pol's very brief description in Engineering about what a bond is that they had any time to get into the details of it. They were too busy dealing with the Orions.

I've watched that scene dozens of times and I still think he was talking about their messed-up relationship and not the bond specifically.

As far as the "I'm sick and tired of this bond we've got line," goes, that's 10 times worse in terms of predicting the success of their relationship. He didn't say "I'm sick and tired of you being in my head, or reading my feeling," He said he was sick and tired of the bond, and I see that as a rejection of their relationship all together. I think that line was put in, to once again, spoon feed angst and set us up for the break up in "the_abomination." It seemed forced and out of place to me considering after he says it Trip is very protective and connected to T'Pol.

The B's knew the end was near already and I sincerely doubt they gave it one one hundredth of the time we're giving it here.

[WarpGirl]

As far as the "I'm sick and tired of this bond we've got line," goes, that's 10 times worse in terms of the success of their relationship. He didn't say "I'm sick and tired of you being in my head, or reading my feeling," He said he was sick and tired of the bond, and that is a rejection of their relationsip all together.

Well I agree with that last part all right.

I just don't think with the stress of fixing Enterprise, and dealing with the Orian slave babes, (even if he was immune they were stressful), on top of being upside down because of his own heartbreak and weird daydreams... He had time to even think about the implications of being bonded. Especially since T'Pol was almost as much in the dark about what it actually was as him. Usually when humans get hit with big unexpected news, their first reaction is "No big deal, everything will be fine." And after they have time to process it the moment comes. I think Trip had no time to process, and by Terra Prime it was just sinking in. Hence that "other line."

[Aikiweezie]

As far as the "I'm sick and tired of this bond we've got line," goes, that's 10 times worse in terms of the success of their relationship. He didn't say "I'm sick and tired of you being in my head, or reading my feeling," He said he was sick and tired of the bond, and that is a rejection of their relationsip all together.

Well I agree with that last part all right.

I just don't think with the stress of fixing Enterprise, and dealing with the Orian slave babes, (even if he was immune they were stressful), on top of being upside down because of his own heartbreak and weird daydreams... He had time to even think about the implications of being bonded. Especially since T'Pol was almost as much in the dark about what it actually was as him. Usually when humans get hit with big unexpected news, their first reaction is "No big deal, everything will be fine." And after they have time to process it the moment comes. I think Trip had no time to process, and by Terra Prime it was just sinking in. Hence that "other line."

That's what I mean. He just found out about the bond a few hours before he said "it's not that big of a deal." He requested his transfer back to Enterprise THREE DAYS BEFORE THAT. He didn't even know about the bond then. That's why I don' think he was talking about the bond.

[WarpGirl]

I see your point. BUT, I think that while T'Pol was a part of his decision, the particular catalyst was what happened to his ENGINE.

Edit: I just wanted to add...Trip with or without T'Pol in his life, is an engineer. Enterprise might be Jon's ship, but her engine, her heart, belongs to Trip. He poured his heart and soul into it just as much as he poured it into T'Pol. Add the fact that Enterprise is also his home, with people that are his closest friends, and Columbia is not, I can see him saying “T'Pol or no T'Pol this is where I am supposed to be. I can't leave again. No matter how things work out with her, I need to be here.”

[Silverbullet]

Aikeweezie,(sp) Millions of MIles? Try billions or even Trilions. A bond that incredibly strong to link two minds over such a vast distace. T-Pol should have been aware the Bond existed unless she tought she was dreaming the white room incident. Even so, a bond that strong and the two not being able to control it should have caused a number of problems for them being on the same ship. If she meditates or he day dreams they get linked, Powerfully. imagine if it his while both are working. They would be stopped by the powr of it. Doubt if the writers even thought of the magnitude of what they wrote. It seems like they thought it was just around the corner or in the next room instead of such a huge distance and power. The bond if it was that strong must have made life intersting for them.

[pdsldl]

I agree with Aikiweezie I don't think Trip was speaking about the bond at all. He left because she accused him of not being professional and allowing his feelings to cloud his judgment and he went all Hard on himself and started to think he was incapable of serving with her without making more mistakes and putting her at risk so he left. That and he thought she wasn't interested. He came back deciding that 1) he couldn't escape her even on another ship (she'd been making visits inside his head which I'm sure he thought were pretty detailed dreams) and 2) he was needed on Enterprise so he needed to make it work.

The comment about the bond in the mines I saw as extreme frustration on Trip's part. They're connected but it seems to be working one way and she's still misunderstanding things. Most likely because she took passing thoughts that he may have been having, we all have them but we know not to take them seriously, as what he really believed. But his behavior towards her did not say I'm tired of this relationship. They were lost, tired, hurt, scared and looking for their child so I can't see him ever in any way considering ending things with her at that point.

[Aikiweezie]

[quote="WarpGirl"] Edit: I just wanted to add...Trip with or without T'Pol in his life, is an engineer. Enterprise might be Jon's ship, but her engine, her heart, belongs to Trip. He poured his heart and soul into it just as much as he poured it into T'Pol. Add the fact that Enterprise is also his home, with people that are his closest friends, and Columbia is not, I can see him saying “T'Pol or no T'Pol this is where I am supposed to be. I can't leave again. No matter how things work out with her, I need to be here.”[/quot

Then we actually agree, because "this thing between us" did not supercede (sp?) his desire to return. He would try to figure it out, deal with it, in order to get back on Enterprise. Hoping of course, that she would want him back. "Admit it, you want me back." then of course, she says she doesn't know what he means, followed by "I want you to come back" and the kiss.

[Aikiweezie]

I agree with Aikiweezie I don't think Trip was speaking about the bond at all. He left because she accused him of not being professional and allowing his feelings to cloud his judgment and he went all Hard on himself and started to think he was incapable of serving with her without making more mistakes and putting her at risk so he left. That and he thought she wasn't interested. He came back deciding that 1) he couldn't escape her even on another ship (she'd been making visits inside his head which I'm sure he thought were pretty detailed dreams) and 2) he was needed on Enterprise so he needed to make it work.

The comment about the bond in the mines I saw as extreme frustration on Trip's part. They're connected but it seems to be working one way and she's still misunderstanding things. Most likely because she took passing thoughts that he may have been having, we all have them but we know not to take them seriously, as what he really believed. But his behavior towards her did not say I'm tired of this relationship. They were lost, tired, hurt, scared and looking for their child so I can't see him ever in any way considering ending things with her at that point.

Yes, I agree. Their behavior after Trip says that doesn't really match up with what he just said. I think it was a poorly written line.